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In Reply to: RE: Magnepan at CES where? posted by Neuro on January 09, 2009 at 17:44:05
"Best sound so far? Well, no doubt about this one. Magnepan had a huge screen blocking the view of some new speakers they are coming to market with. We listened to the ten minute demo and could not see what we were hearing. As a magnepan owner, very familiar with the Maggie sound, I thought they sounded MUCH better then my 1.6s, whatever they were. Very open, warm, lifelike and spacious. The bass was deep, tight and full. So the demo ends and they ask what we think before unveiling them from the curtain. They sounded so good, I honestly thought we were listening to a new flagship speaker from them. Nope. Lights came on and back there were a pair of the smallest and cutest maggies Ive ever seen. Maybe a foot high and six inches wide on top of some two foot stands!!! The company is dumbfounded by what they have designed (they actually stumbled on to it by trying to make computer speakers for the desktop) and has no idea how to price or market
them because they also feel they are better then half their lineup. They asked us for help!!!!! Basically they are using the true ribbon tweeter and midrange used in their flagship speaker, but on a tiny scale! The mini maggies only go down to 300 hertz so They also used in the demo two magnepan woofers, for the bass, which are basically hunks off the 20.1 flagship. The planar magnetic woofers will list for 500 dollars and are passive and go to 40 hertz. This demo had myself, Bob and Jeff literally flipping out. Its all we talked about at dinner. Magnepan has no idea on how to price the mini maggies so I dont know what they will list for Other will be inexpensive though because of what a consumers perception of what your getting size wise) but Im already thinking of how to sell my huge 1.6 maggies so I can get these dinky things!!!!! Goes to show again that small and simple monitors like this one are the way to go sometimes."
"If God had meant for us to be naked, we would have been born that way." - Unknown
Follow Ups:
(the speaker with more names than a medieval princess), which has the tweeter and midrange mounted on an open baffle. The sound was exquisite, even in a show venue. There is a lot of benefit to small dipole mid/tweeter arrangements. Losing the line source geometry is not the end of civilization.
The dipole bass will still require a lot of turf in the listening room, so the temptation will be to mate the small Maggies with small subs. I would like to see Duke get involved with his multiple sub technology.
First, I think it's rather funny that their biggest breakthru (at least supposedly) in 40 years was a complete accident.
My own work showed me that size is not a deterring factor in the kind of performance you can get out of these speakers and I had to fight many wars on here getting that point across. I suppose if this is what these things are and they do become popular, it will finally put the last nail in that coffin.
I bought a pair of MG-I's once that I even got to hear before buying, and which sounded good, and I got them home to find only 6" of wire still attached in the middle. So I too heard and liked a 6" by 12" maggie on 2 foot stands :^ )
Thoreau said to simplify and I agree, especially where maggies are concerned. It is interesting after 40 years of making things bigger and bigger that magnepan itself finally had this eye opener. Now if someone could just get them to try something besides rat shack wire....
All that said, if I were a 1.6 or 3 series owner I would not be rushing to get my audiogon ad ready just yet.... As I said, small maggies are capable of sounding much better than many people believed, however that sound is not the same kind of sound one gets from the bigger ones.
I love modded MMG's and could be very happy with them. However I prefer modded 1.6's and I prefer still the 2.7's. No matter how nice these new things sound there is no way they do what those modded 2.7's did. If it turns out a modded 3 does the same thing... enough said.
I think what these new ones excell at is they are playing and behaving like a single full range Fostex or Lowther speaker, and that is a very, VERY musical ride, and yes, compared to a stock 1.6 I would take the new one too.
However once the smoke clears, enthusiasm fades and reality kicks in these will be relegated to those who have space issues I believe. In any event it's clear they must have the maggie sub modules with them to perform properly, so even if they price these things at $1,500 a pair, once you add the subs in it's not going to be a bargain like the MMG. It will probably be closer to a 3.6, and if the 3.6 can be made magical it eliminates this new one except for those with space issues.
What's really funny is I was going to try to do this very thing. I was going to take the busted and broken MG-I's I got and try to make small "computer maggies" out of them, only I never had the time.
As always I wish magnepan the best of luck. They need it to survive in this world, and we need them. I'm looking forward to seeing these things, and I can hardly wait for the messed up model number they assign them.
The MGS 6.7/8ths
It's all about the music...
On that size issue, my MMG is no match for either my 3.6, and neither is my 3.6 for my Tymp IVa, so IME size does matter.
Size only matters inasmuch as it absolutely changes the presentation.
I am also not talking about stock speakers, only ones that have been fully modded.
Once that is done there are of course things the 1.6 does the MMG does not, but there are things the MMG does the 1.6 cannot, and many people prefer the presentation of the MMG. Since these new maggies in question would certainly mimmick that sound it is understandable to me what people hear and like about them.
That said there are issues of bass reproduction, soundstaging and detail retrieval that get more and more enhanced the larger one goes. That's the physics of it and nothing is going to change that, which is why I said if people prefer that aspect then these new little mags are not going to hold much interest for them.
It's all about the music...
Has anyone considered WHY they chose 1000 watt amps for the demonstration? How much quality current will these speakers need would be a question that comes to mind. I know Maggies love current and can handle a substantial amount, but this seems a mismatch for small planars.
I think they could have been more forthcoming with details and pictures. Rather than generating excitement, for me, I am just irritated after all the hype and no pictures or details.
They could have done better if you ask me (of course no one has) and FYI, I was a Marketing Product Manager for a major national firm, so I am not unaccustomed to new product roll outs.
I can say with 100% certainty that maggies are not like other speakers and that there is no "limit" to consumption. If it is good quality power they will simply keep taking it and they will use it for low level micro resolution. This goes for any of them, from MMG's to 20's. They will take and use all the power you give them.
The point Travis makes below and you hint at is possible. I am surprised that if these things are "all that" they are not making as much PR hay as they can, especially at a trade show. You would think there'd be so many pics out there it would be turning our stomachs already. The fact that it's still such a big damn secret implies this won't see the market any time soon.... if ever. It violates their company mantra of bigger is better, so they may very well decide they are best served not even making it.
It's all about the music...
I sink 1000 Watts into MMG's regularly...
Wendell understands psychology .
The way a speaker looks affects the way we perceive it will sound. That translates directly into the way we will perceive the sound it makes (at least in the short term). Perhaps Magnepan just wants to keep the secret until after their CES debut can create some buzz (and press). After an impression which is uninfluenced by the knowledge of what they look like has been formed, they reveal them. Look for a flood of photos and more information any day now.
Who knows? I'm just throwing another perspective out there. We're all just speculating after all, aren't we?
As another inmate mentioned, a 300Hz crossover point is a bit on the high side. With that in mind, I have a question. Is this speaker system comprised of a pair of satellites with a single sub? A 60Hz tone can issue from anywhere in a room without calling attention to its point of origin; 300Hz is a different matter altogether.
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
I certainly hope that these will see the light of day, if only for my greedy ears to hear them. Ok, so I wish the company luck also, and believe that something like this could be very good for them, and hi-fi in general.
I'd venture to guess that the Mini Mags weren't really ready to be shown off in the first place, and that it'll be awhile before they come to market. I am keeping both fingers and toes crossed that they will. Both us and them need it to happen.
I can't help but think to myself that old saying, "if it's too good to be true..." But there's quite a few people saying the same things about them.
And no, I'm sure I won't rush off and sell my 3 series, because I still have quite a ways to go to make them all they can be, and have fun in the process- I just want to hear them and see them take off!
Cory
Not to put too fine a point on it, but this all reads like testing the waters. I don't believe they rolled out a new product. If so, what was it?
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Point well made & taken. Plenty of "concept cars" never make it to dealers' car lots.
Also, a bit reminiscent of the mini-computer companies that feared micro-computers might cannibalize sales. The companies that tip-toed sold very few PC's and lost their mini-computer business as well. Those that sold PC's aggressively lived to fight another day even though profits and sales took near-term hits.
Did you hear that?
It was a "hidden demo" behind a curtain and they wanted us to THINK they had (perhaps) a huge new speaker there because all we could see were the amps in front of the drape! It worked on me. I thought for sure it WAS a behemoth back there and when the lights went on, I nearly fell from my chair!
The soundstage was massive, with HEIGHT and DEPTH clearly beyond the boundry of the loudspeakers. I saw someone write in this thread something to the effect that "those little things could not have sounded as big or good as the ribbon 20.1's". Make no mistake about it, it would be CLOSE. They played waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay larger then they had any right to.
Regards,
Joel
Obviously next on anyone's agenda should be A/B/X "shootouts" involving the rest of their line with the new wunderkind.
Because ABX is how it would need to be done. Magnepan was GENIUS by not letting anyone see the min-mags in the demo. Perceptions were not able to be formed....
There is no doubt these were better then my 1.6's and I have spent time with the 3.6's and they sounded more in line with those. BUT---to hear about the guy with 20.1's who said "mine don't sound as good as these" really says something!
I really wish I could have heard them side by side with, say, the 3.6's. Would have been very interesting. Wendell did admit the obvious however---these small things won't play as loud as the 3.6's without straining and these mini-maggies are best suited for small to medium sized rooms. I pointed out to him, however, that his mystery demo room was ANYTHING but small to medium----it was HUGE. And it filled the entire room with sound, no problem. He smiled.
Regards,
Joel
That is exactly right, joeljoel hit it on the head. The Brystons were there to throw off the scent trail. I understand the scepticism, but I heard them (twice). You won't believe it. They mentioned seperating the ribbons and crossing over at 300 leaves the meat of the work to the base module. I am a believer!
Uh . . . Maggie Midgets????? Snark, snark!!!!'
"If God had meant for us to be naked, we would have been born that way." - Unknown
'The Amazing Magnepan'.
The mantra from White Bear Lake has always been, 'the bigger the planar speaker, the better. Buy the biggest Magnepan you can afford and worry about the rest later'.
I hope this experience opens their eyes to new ideas and new products.
...doesn't seem like a good idea to have a crossover point in the midrange like that. A fault of many three-way conventional speaker systems was the crossover point from woofer to midrange being too high (to increase power handling?). But if they still sounded great, who cares?!?
But then I do have 2 of them (bass panels).
Interesting concept, this new speaker! :-))
Regards,
Andy
The first crossover point in a 3-way will be lower than the only crossover point in a 2-way. It's actually the 2nd point that can be the more problematic in a 3-way, isn't it? The greater issue here, as I'm glad to see someone else also mention, is placing a single sub at a room boundary and having it operate all the way up to 300Hz. There's going to be an audible disconnect between the sub and the satellites. I could be wrong (as I mentioned before - that would be nothing new), but I don't think that would work. 60Hz is one thing, but 100Hz is getting you into trouble, and 300Hz is just asking for it IMO.It's an apples to oranges thing I know, but try disconnecting one of your bass panels. I'd be curious to know how much your head keeps getting yanked in the direction of the operating bass panel.
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
Edits: 01/13/09
However, I'm not sure I agree with your statement that " It's actually the 2nd point that can be the more problematic in a 3-way ".
If you want to be "theoretical" about it, I suggest having a crossover anywhere in the human voice range - say, 150hz to 2,500hz - is not a good thing. So having the XO from woofer to mid on the Linkwitz "Orion" & the John Kreskovsky "NaO" @ 120hz is better than having it @ 340hz on my IIIas.
Likewise, the XO between mid & ribbon on my IIIas is set @ 2,600hz ... which I reckon is better than the 3.6, where it is down around 1,800hz. (And the NaO is 2,500hz compared to the Orion's 1,500hz.)
Regards,
Andy
I'm not sure I agree with anything I say ;- )
I initially read that there was a single woofer. Now I read that there are two. That changes things, but I think I'd want to keep them fairly close (each 'sub'/sat pair).
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
Why? They don't really look that close in the demo pics.
They also had two woofer enclosures for a total of 4 woofers so each little panel had two woofers supporting it.
Woof, Woof
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
300Hz is above a middle C. If I put on a blindfold and then spin around a few times (so that I'm disoriented with regard to where things are) and my daughter hits a middle C on the piano, I can point right at it. Drop an octave to a C3 and I still can. My point is that these are highly localizable frequencies, so they shouldn't be coming from different points in the room. At least, that's what I think - I'm not sure I'd pay much attention to me however ;- )
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
Edits: 01/13/09
Another problem is that 300Hz is localizable. If there are stereo planar subs located with each of the little panels, then I suppose this isn't an issue. Otherwise...I dunno. Regardless, what little I've read of listeners' impressions has been overwhelmingly positive.
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
There was only 1 in the demo
This poster also liked the Magnepan demo:
I'm mean really; if true, no more excuses for not wanting to ship em' (on the used market)'!!
Edits: 01/10/09
Yep, that's exciting. Crap-cann the MMG-Ws, offer these instead as factory direct. I always though there was a market for upscale MMGs. Most folks will add their own subs anyway.
I have a new smaller music room that these may work in. I was intertaining the idea of going with VMPS bookshelves, but now we'll have to see...
If you offer a factory direct product that is superior in performance to the 12's and 1.6's you will loose 90% of your dealers.
That will not work out so good. For Magnepan, or their dealers.
I am not so sure. The maggie dealers I have been in really werent interested in selling maggies...
I know what you mean. Definitive Audio in Seattle, for example.
1.Most salespeople follow the money.
Maggies are about 15 or more points less in margin than most speaker lines (so my buddy who sold the stuff told me)They think they can sell whatever they want. If another brand is at the same price but makes them more, they try harder for that other brand.
2.Most salespeople are arrogant.
They fill cheapened if they make less money on the same volume. Then somehow, that product becomes beneath them.
3. It is easy to adjust the performance of a speaker by adjusting the setup.
Set up the other one a little better or the maggies not so nice as the one you want to sell...or both like Audio consultants in Chicago did with their 3.6s and B&W
Ever see the shop where the mags arent hooked up? That is an extreme version of 3.
Add those up and I am sure there are more and there you go.
There are some exceptions like Stereo Unlimited but I bet they are few and far between.
The two closest Mag dealers to me are both 200+ miles away :^(
Hey Johnv,
The two closest Mag dealers to me are both 200+ miles away :^(
That MAY be the best thing you could hope for.
If you want to actually buy some then call magnepan and tell them that the nearest dealer is more than 200 miles away, and ask them if you can buy direct.
I have heard them doing this when a dealer is not in the area, but don't know if it is a policy. I CANT HURT TO CHECK.
I would add:
#5.
Myths about maggies and placement and needing big amps, etc. may make dealers not want to sell maggies as much since it will require some extra work or may cause some returns...remember the poster who took some 1.6s home put them 2 ft from the wall and complained about brightness?? Dealers hate returns.
#6. WAF. See #5.
#7 Mods. One really needs to mod them to get them to sound good....IMHO/ YMMV.
#8 TAS. Did you see the last recommended components issue? The whole f'n magnepan line was recommended. What self respecting dealer wants to let magazines dictate sales :) See #1
jk
I wonder if it came from these.
http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/495/decware-personal-planar-speakers
I may be an egoist but at least I don't talk about other people.
How about telling us the size of that room?
And before getrting on a waiting list to buy them ;-), how far were they positioned from the walls?
that's sure to send shock waves throughout the audio community!
What were they driving them with (the Bryston 1,000 watt monoblocks) ???
Sounds like I may have my new HT speakers.
Were you able to get any pictures of them that you can post?
Thanks,
Tim
Whoa...random thoughts:
* I wonder what they did to the driver. That's not a lot of radiating area for the midrange and ribbon, so I'm guessing the midrange might be different.
* Were they using an active crossover to split the signal at 300hz?
* I bet the decoupling of the woofer panel also contributes to clarity.
-- Nils
They're that small?! I wonder if they are a folded ribbon design, like the ones Carver came out with recently. If that's the case, and they can produce and market them for a good price, then Magnepan just might reach a broader audience and rise up further in this "HT" world.
Did you notice what they were using for components? I can't believe that any foot tall speaker could sound better than a 1.6- and that goes against Magnepan's traditional basic philosophy also. How was soundstage and imaging etc.? Like a point source, I suppose.
Of course they require a subwoofer, and if they are the 20.1 bass panels, then you have your large size right back.
I like Panhead's idea! Maggies in the car!! Now that would be rolling in comfort, luxury and class. Get one of Butler's tube amps to drive them.... nice.
Cory
Yes, how about that for an idea?
Cheers
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