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In Reply to: Tube-Maggie-zero autotransformer?...New question from an old inmate... posted by Kiefer74.1 on October 21, 2006 at 15:16:50:
If it's significantly cheaper to get hold of a second Magnum M-120 (or even a second amp of any decent kind) than upgrade to an M-150, why don'tcha go active? :-))
When you say you'd like to listen "louder", IMO you are seeking one of two things ... or possibly both :-)) :
1. You want the dB level entering your ears to be higher, or
2. You want to experience a more "dynamic" (read "snappier") presentation.
Removing the passive crossover components and connecting amps directly to the drivers (with an active crossover before the amps) results in a more dynamic presentation because the coils and caps are no longer "in the way" and so the amps can exert a tighter control on the drivers.
Also, because each amp is only being used for part of the frequency spectrum, it can "give its all" to those frequencies ... thus you can turn up the volume because the amp has more headroom within its allocated frequency band, compared to one amp doing full-range duty.
The "rule of thumb" for actives is that 2 x 120wpc amps in a 2-way active setup is equivalent to a single 480wpc amp in a passive setup.
I think the crossover in the 1.6s happens at about 800Hz? In which case, the amp driving the quasi-ribbon would only need to be about 3/4 the power of the amp driving the bass panel (however, they both need to have the same gain, or a sound-level mismatch will occur between the two frequency bands).
I typed out this lengthy reply and I lost it trying to copy a message from STEVENK to reply to both of you at the same time.
To see my profile (not sure how up-to-date it is now) look under 'kiefer74'
OK short(er) version...
"When you say you'd like to listen "louder", IMO you are seeking one of two things ... or possibly both :-)) :
1. You want the dB level entering your ears to be higher, or
2. You want to experience a more "dynamic" (read "snappier") presentation."
Both, though I'm not sure if it's just power based or I'm asking these speakers to do something they cannot do. I want a higher db level no doubt, but when I get it close to the level I'd like, the soundstage decreases and the music sounds muddy or blurry.
ex. Beethovens 5th, end of 3rd movement going into the finale...if you know the piece then you may get a feel for what I'm talking about.
Plus I listen to a lot of metal music more often at home now...C.O.C., Tool, Ministry (one of my fave's), Slayer etc...also funk...old stuff like curtis mafield and newer stuff like older chili peppers(which in most cases the recording is bad not my equipment).
"I would try biamping first and if you feel you have adequate dynamics but still lack some bass control, try the autoformers then."
Sounds like both of you are for bi-amping. One problem is they've made a lot of changes at Rogue Audio over the years. I have their 1st Magnum model (both 99 preamp and m-120 amps). Given the $2g price for an upgrade of 30 watts may show the point. Plus they use all new cuircut boards, transformers, tubes etc...I'm a bit hesitant to get a NEW 90 that will sound sonically different than my m-120's (Magnum).
Maybe I should get the m-120's upgraded and then get a 90 (w/ the same circrity(excuse my spelling) so everything will match up right? I've thought about getting the Zeus amp. though I think most would say it's overkill for the 1.6's. So how would bi-amping be any different?
I can reach the level of 'power' I want off 2 other sets of speakers I have...both conventional style and not quite the sound I'm looking for.
Are the 1.6's capable of true punch in the chest power, yet able to keep the planar sound?
Iguess that enough questions for now.
Anyone reading these posts feel free to add your .02
I have Rogue Magnum 120's driving Apogee Duetta Signatures so not exacty the same. I do however understand where your comming from and it's partly the fault of your speakers (and my speakers). Dipoles don't load the room in the same maner that a monopole cone does, ie...they don't punch the air in the same pistonic motion that a cone does.
Active bi-amp is a good suggestion and will give you an overall increase in sound quality, spl's...and even "some" amount of greater slam. I'm going to do this with my Duetta Sigs down the road...except, I only need (want) to gain in sound quality...a little extra SPL's will also be a nice gain.
Getting back to slam...I solved that problem with a pair of subs and two crossover settings. My normal setting only uses the subs for the bottom octave...this is great for almost all of my music.
Slam is not usually bottom octave bass however...it's more of an upper bass thing when we play rock music...this is where my second crossover setting comes into play. While this second setting is not exactly "audiophile" approved...who the heck cares...sounds fantastic with high spl rock music and the slam factor is there in spades.
OK, you want to "do both"!! :-))
IMO, your speakers are perfectly capable of delivering what you'd like ... except for one vital point! If you want dynamic punch-in-the-chest metal, you probably need cone speakers!! :-)) But if you like Beethoven's 5th then 1.6s will be juzz fine!!
When you say: "when I get it close to the (sound) level I'd like, the soundstage decreases and the music sounds muddy or blurry.
ex. Beethovens 5th, end of 3rd movement going into the finale...if you know the piece then you may get a feel for what I'm talking about".
Yes I do know the piece ... complex orchestral music played loud is a hard test for a hifi system and I suggest Wagner would be similar except (with vocals in the musical mix) worse!!
The "muddiness" you're describing IMO is the result of the amp experiencing intermodulation (IM) distortion. Maybe the topology of Rogue amps is such that they suffer from IMD? ... I have no idea as I've never heard one. But basically, if a 120w amp suffers from IMD when it approaches its maximum output, you need to consider it as, say, a 90w amp ... and never turn up its wick fully!! :-((
So I doubt that going to a Rogue M-150 would actually help you much ... but adding a second M-120 certainly would! Although I think an M-90 would probably be fine for the ribbon (combined with your M-120 for the bass).
(But only if their new amp has the same gain as your old M-120.)
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