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https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/vaccine-passports-could-be-our-ticket-to-normalcy-but-canada-isnt-ready/
This twit from Maclean's doesn't begin to get it, so let me frame it in terms of my full blown 1960s paranoia (otherwise known as libertarian socialism). The real danger here is that international industries will exert control over what is effectively an internal passport, determining where I can go within my own community and what I can do. Maybe coronavirus is just the start.
And the need here - apart from the interests of the cruise and air industries - is far from clear. In six months time why would I insist that everyone who attends a concert be immunized? Heck, I'm not sure I'd be concerned next week as I am immunized.
Now, what we really should be thinking about is what is happening in Brazil, for example. The biggest threat to the blessed first world immunized is that variants are brewing in the third world that will evade the effects of the vaccine - not the guy sitting next to them with no app on his phone.
Follow Ups:
You're probably onto something there, because if it does happen, won't be the result of government. At least, not the government made up of people that we vote for. The shadow government, AKA "the private sector," that government is most likely to require a vaccine passport.
Want to get on a cruise ship? Prove you got the Jab, please. Same if you want to board an airliner and maybe even if you want to shop at WalMart.
Nothing anybody can do about that. The private sector is more powerful than the people we vote for. I could see it happening.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
But the problem (as you rightly see) is that we don't vote them in and can't vote them out. And once something like this gets started they'll have a mandate to refuse products and services to whole classes of individuals. Is this what we really want?
they exist to make money. Period. End of story.
They don't respect justice, freedom, mom's apple pie, and the American Way unless there's something in it for them.
And, unfortunately, they have the right to deny service. It's not what I want, it never was what I wanted, but the rest of the country is sold on this type of capitalism.
But on the other hand, you need to prove your kid's been vaccinated against a whole boatload of childhood diseases if you want to get him into kindergarten. Something like a vaccine passport is not without precedent.
If it were me, and I had to flash my vaccine card at WalMart, well I probably wouldn't shop at WalMart.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 04/11/21
And being excluded from certain venues is a good start. The rest of us should not be put at risk to indulge their paranoid delusions.
No, Mr. Pence, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary about the good old days.
d
Funny how some people crave nanny fascism and will seize on any excuse.
d
You are vaccinated. What will a vaccine passport protect you from exactly? As I credit you with being somewhat rational I'm thinking you just want this as an incentive to promote vaccination.
from possible transmission from me--- and I from them. Further:
"But scientists don't fully know yet how much the vaccines reduce transmission of the virus from a vaccinated person to others.
The good news is that studies suggest that the vaccines do reduce transmission — to some extent.
Additional studies are underway now that should give us a better answer soon to the question of transmission after vaccination". healthline.com
There is not yet enough data to show that vaccinated people cannot pass on the infection.
The vaccinated might be protected from getting sick, but it has not been proven that they cannot pass on the disease to the unvaccinated.
Pfizer and Moderna are 100% effective against severe disease, but somehow reduced transmission from others is still a benefit to you? As for protecting others, they need the vaccine to get the vaccine passport so it confers no extra protection. My conclusion is that your answer is disingenuous.
Not sure where you're getting your stats btw. CDC has most definitely not made the claim that these vaccines are 100% effective. And as you've mentioned separately, there's still a fair amount of uncertainty regarding effectiveness against variants. We're still very early days with respect to comprehensive clinical trials. So while it certainly helps the logic of your argument to declare premature victory against COVID, it's a stretch. Moreover, your argument presumes that public health interests are limited to those who want protection, and that we as a society don't care about those who don't or haven't yet, for whatever reason, sought protection.
d
I've been vaccinated. And I don't have a vaccination "passport". That whole "passport" thing is political bullshit.
What have I been vaccincated for? Let's see:
Measles.
Mumps.
Tetanus.
Smallpox.
Shingles.
Hepatitis.
Polio.
Never once, anywhere, anytime, has anyone ever said "oh, we should have a "passport" for that". It's F-ing bullshit, promoted by political people, likely because they have financial supporters who would benefit from it. Follow the money.
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
Get one, don't get one. The choice is yours. Just don't moan and whine when you are refused entry or service. If a number of countries require it for entry, other countries might not have a choice but to offer vaccine passports to their citizens, and when they are offered they will be more widely required. You can bleat on about your rights and freedoms, but the real world will prevail over your lofty principles. Good luck with that though.
No, Mr. Pence, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary about the good old days.
"The choice is yours. Just don't moan and whine when you are refused entry or service."
Moan and whine?
And, yes, the choice is OURS.
Personally, my choice is to NOT have more government controlling my life. Your choice?
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
That is such an American perspective, and I can understand that you are blind to the obvious. There is an expression that refers to cutting off one's nose to spite his face. That is what you are doing when you hold out a pathological, obsessive need to protect personal freedom at the expense of public health and safety. I pity you because you have been brainwashed.
No, Mr. Pence, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary about the good old days.
nt
d
No vaccine is 100% effective against anything. Some people who have been vaccinated for COVID-19 got infected with the disease anyway, and a small number have died. And even if the vaccine reduces the severity of the disease, the infected are still contagious. Moreover, there will always be people who have legitimate medical reasons not to be vaccinated e.g. people with certain allergies or compromised immune systems. And there will always be children too young to receive certain vaccines. The only protection these people have is herd immunity.
Attitudes like yours are why we're seeing diseases like measles and pertussis re-emerge in Western countries after being eradicated decades ago. Many people are worried, with good reason, that smallpox will be next.
Also, COVID-19 is going to continue to circulate, take people out, and generally drag us down until there is herd immunity. And the only way to get herd immunity is through vaccination.
So as long as a significant percentage of the population remains unvaccinated, those of us who are rational are going to want to keep the unvaccinated away from places where we have social contact with others.
My company already requires specific vaccines for foreign travel to certain places, and is considering a COVID-19 vaccination requirement. I'm all for it. For productivity reasons, I think we need to get back to in-person meetings and agile workspaces. And we're missing the idea generation and innovation that comes from impromptu discussions in the hallways or cafeteria. Also, the social aspect of coming to work is important too for development of professional relationships, morale, and in some cases mental health. The only way we're going to get back to the pre-COVID workplace is to make sure there is herd immunity in the workplace.
And on a selfish note, I want to be able to spend time with my 87 year old Dad doing things he enjoys, which mostly involve being in places where there are a lot of people. And get on a plane with him to visit some family and friends.
In trials the vaccines were 100% effective against severe illness or death. After two doses the incidence of infection (of any severity) is less than .5%.
The issue as to whether herd immunity is possible (however circumscribed geographically) with this disease won't be settled until long after we've opened up. In any case I'm all in favor of strong public health measures - especially immunization efforts in the third world - and I think it goes without saying that both Canada and the U.S. will only open travel to countries where covid-19 is under control.
Is making people a bit whacky. Some otherwise intelligent people seem to be embracing conspiracies and paranoid theories. As we approach the end of this pandemic, hopefully they will start to experience some clarity of thought.
No, Mr. Pence, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary about the good old days.
d
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No, Mr. Pence, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary about the good old days.
Punishment of dissent. This is exactly what nanny fascism is all about - discovering and exploiting new binary distinctions other than gender and race in order to further social discrimination.
It wasn't fascism when you got your shots as a kid, and adding one more vaccine to the list doesn't make it fascism now.
I assume you don't have a problem with requiring a person to obtain a license and insurance to drive on public roads. We don't let unlicensed or uninsured drivers on the road because they can be a hazard to others.
Likewise, vaccines have been required for admittance to various places for many decades e.g. public schools, universities, workplaces, travel. And the reason is to protect people from the hazard of infectious disease.
Nobody is going to force anyone to get vaccinated. But if you don't get the vaccine, you may find that some companies, organizations, and groups of people people don't want you around. They have a right to exercise their freedom of association. You don't have a right to demand entrance to places where you're not wanted.
I most definitely am not, so your rant is irrelevant.
You claim not to be an anti-vaxxer, but you say that vaccination should not be required for admittance to places where an infected individual could do harm, which makes you an anti-vaxxer.
The un-vaccinated may do harm to the un-vaccinated. No big deal.
That right wing "nanny state" rap is as ridiculous today regarding what to do about travel during a continuing pandemic as it was when employed against FDR's New Deal. The roots of the "nanny state" rap sure as hell don't come from an egalitarian viewpoint. Fortunately for sensible people who are against vaccine passports their objections can be presented in a more intelligent manner, as can reasons to be in favor of vaccine passports. It is hardly a cut and dried "nanny state" issue nor are proponents seeking to use vaccine passports as a means of what you label "social discrimination". It is blatantly obvious the REAL issue is simply worldwide public health.
This is an issue that should be discussed thoughtfully and thoroughly sans knee jerk reactions. We are a long way off from firm societal conclusions.
Prohibition was an egregious example of nannyism - it did not make the U.S. a nanny state. As it happens both the U.S. and Canadian federal governments are reluctant to get involved in vaccine passports, which is a good thing.
Time will tell regarding vaccine passports, but from what I've read some European countries are seriously considering it. So far it seems reasonable to me. Dunno why people who refuse to get vaccinated would think they will face no travel restrictions. At the least I'd expect lottsa countries will continue to require testing and/or quarantining before allowing entry. Maybe a vaccine passport for those of us who ARE vaccinated would eliminate those hassles.
But really nowhere near as big a hassle as obtaining a visa. Quite frankly all I remember before going to China and various tropical destinations was a quick visit to public health. As for Covid-19 I already have digital proof which I'm sure the airlines would accept as long as they know that's all they're going to get.
You don't get into countries by showing them your driver's license either. Dunno if vaccine passports will end up being required by a number of countries but doubt the proof you have would be sufficient. I have a card from my LOCAL guv showing I've been vaccinated. Doubt that'll be accepted for international travel but we'll see.
But this situation really highlights what could happen here. You will need to submit your local government (provincial in my case) proof to a private third party to satisfy other private third parties. What could go wrong here?
Edits: 04/10/21
I'd think a vaccine passport would come from some guv agency, just as my card comes from my city guv. You'd use it for airlines, but the real point would be showing it to guv authorities in countries you travel to. Dunno if it'll ever be required for intra-country travel but if so I'd guess that'd be to satisfy requirements some states might have.
I get my driver's license and passport from guv agencies. Other than recent delays due to covid I've never had a problem renewing either. Here in New Jersey it took me 20 minutes to switch from a NY driver's license to a Jersey license. Don't see why getting some kind of guv issued covid passport would be such a big deal.
The Biden administration will not produce a passport.
Who else would issue something like that and what country is gonna accept proof of vaccination from a biz as opposed to an official guv dept.?
I'm not sure how I feel about it. I need to do some more reading. No doubt there would be lots of opposition from people who choose not to be vaccinated. The current potential problems with some vaccines - including Astra, JNJ and the Chinese vaccine - isn't making any decision about this issue easier.
There is no validity for using that 'F'-word here. Public health is not a political issue. If you don't want to be 'enslaved' under the yoke of the man's oppression, don't carry a vaccine passport. Problem solved. Just don't be shocked when you can't take that vacation you have been looking forward to.
No, Mr. Pence, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary about the good old days.
This is just the kind of lie that justifies using the f word.
Of course it is! Mandating a picture ID to vote, however, is not a public interest issue, by way of comparison.
Everyone who has it is already immune. Oh wait, now I truly understand your magnanimous soul: you want to exclude the un-vaccinated for their own good! Isn't that the very essence of nannyism?
And you are entitled to your delusions. That is why we are a free country. I just refuse to indulge a person's irrational paranoia. Go ahead and worry though. It is obviously something that your mind feels strongly about.
No, Mr. Pence, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary about the good old days.
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No, Mr. Pence, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary about the good old days.
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