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In Reply to: RE: Brecker Brothers - Harpoon posted by dwill123 on September 08, 2020 at 05:38:46
I'm a huge fan of jazz arrangements and all the great arrangers. I get just as much out of good arrangements as I get out of the improvised solos.
In this case the arrangements are what interests me. Neither of the Brecker Brothers are my taste in terms of solos - too mechanical however clever the licks are. I'm sure most fans will disagree. I have something like the same reaction as I do to Chris Potter, whose long solo on Steely Dan's West of Hollywood ruins a great song. I'd even go as far as to say I find him quite annoying.
Follow Ups:
I have several of Potter's cd's as well as recordings he's on as a sideman. I enjoy listening to him - particularly as a saxophone player because his chops are pretty f'ing amazing. But I do know what you mean and I OD on his playing after a while. It sometimes seems like he plays every damn thing he CAN play in one solo.I once saw a video of Potter "warming up". IIRC somebody in the room with him asked him if he knew some standard tune - can't remember what tune it was. Potter proceeded to play it, solo. It was an incredible display of chops and stamina that went on chorus after chorus. There was pretty much nothing about the tune/changes left unplayed. I sent a link to it to one of the saxophonists who played in my big band. Don't wanna say who it was but his chops are also fantastic. However the way he uses his amazing technique and his musical concept (both absent "licks" and cliches) is VERY different than Potter's.
His response was "Where's the MUSIC?" Too harsh IMO, but as with your comment I understand his reaction.
Edits: 09/09/20 09/09/20
I can't say I've ever got this feeling from listening to Chris Potter. I have got it listening to Donny McCaslin oftentimes. This complaint was constantly leveled against Michael Brecker by lots of people I knew. I'm not sure why, but saxophone players seem to be most afflicted by an obsession with playing the horn more than playing the music. I've played with guys who played the horn very well, but were paying absolutely no attention to what was going on around them.
dh
"I'm not sure why, but saxophone players seem to be most afflicted by an obsession with playing the horn more than playing the music. I've played with guys who played the horn very well, but were paying absolutely no attention to what was going on around them."
I wouldn't say this is the whole story, but it's part of it. The "mechanical" sax soloists, an accusation sometimes levelled at guys like Potter and Brecker, had huge facility. But what did this consist of and how was it acquired? If it was acquired by practising all kinds of licks that could then be strung together into solos then yes, what you would get is just a succession of licks, scales, arpeggios etc. What you would not get is -
- playing around with phrases, developing them, inverting them etc. like Sonny Rollins or Melissa Aldana
- developing harmonic and melodic ideas in a cumulative and constructive way like Coltrane did so well.
So while solos have to fit the context - agree there - they also have to have an architecture, a development, even a sense of humour. In this way they are no different from a well thought out composition. A parade of endless licks all strung together without linear development may get you a job in a band and a lot of fans who admire your facility, but it doesn't fool listeners who demand a higher level of musicality.
I didn't mean for my post to be an indictment of saxophone players writ large. It's just when I think back on musicians that seem to be "lost in the horn" as it were, most of them seem to be sax players, tenor in particular. I'm not sure I can think of a single trumpeter who has given me this sense. Maybe others will name some, and I'll think "oh, yeah....". I've heard a couple drummers--Cody Moffett was notorious for this stuff back in Chicago.
When I try to think of reasons why, I come up with a couple things. Jazz horn players generally are not in supporting roles the way rhythm players are, and this seems like one probable reason for the tendency. Section playing is one thing, but it's not the same role, not to me anyway. Sax is probably the most "playable" of the common jazz horns. It's not used much in orchestral music, and it has probably had it's technique expanded by jazz more than most wind instruments. I would think it's the combination of all those things that make sax players most at risk of falling into this trap. Or maybe I'm full of shit....who knows?
dh
I far prefer Potter as a sideman.
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