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In Reply to: RE: Message to group: RE: Conclusion of Freeze Effect Project posted by kerr on May 29, 2007 at 07:21:05
>I thought that showing genuine interest in advancing our collective understanding (mine as well, here) was what AA & PHP was all about? <
>> That was your mistake. <<
Apparently. (sigh) I guess I shouldn't have taken the Audio Asylum mission statement to actually mean what it said, since the recent actions of AA staff have contradicted those words.
>> PHP is a gathering place for naysayers, pseudo-scientists and others too lazy to listen to bark about scientific method, DBT's, proof and to generally remain with their heads buried in the sand. <<
Sweet. I couldn't have said it better myself...
>> That said, I tried the freezer test with my own CD's and did not hear any differences. <<
The freezer test is something that most can usually discern. But its very possible to do a "bad test" somehow, and miss it entirely. For example, I don't know what process you used. A proper freeze test takes about 2 days (because it is repeated twice), and involves a very slow thawing process each time (where the item would be wrapped in thick blanket, for example, to slow warm-up). And in this case, an unfrozen control CD copy would be necessary to compare to the frozen. I am sure you can hear differences in alternative audio, if the right tests were done.Objective Audiophile 2007
Follow Ups:
Don't give up. Despite the comments you may read to the contrary, you're the hero of the subjectivist around here. You listen before you decide. Granted, you may be "over the edge" of some of the subjectivists viewpoints but if they've heard cable differences, they're most of the way home. On the flip side, you're willing to test your subjective experiences. When you get right down to it, who can ask for more? Ok, don't answer that! :)
As for the pseudo-scientist side, do their opinions really matter? It's been shown that most of them can't determine differences that aren't painfully obvious, like speakers. Their listening threshold is low. I'd feel sorry for them if they'd at least make some attempts to listen but it reminds me of my children who'd essentially say at the dinner table "I don't like this. No, I've never tried it but I hate it anyway".
Just remember - no amount of logic can overcome foot-stomping emotion. Put 'em in the corner until they unclench! :) And hang onto that courage of your convictions.
> > As for the pseudo-scientist side, do their opinions really matter? It's been shown that most of them can't determine differences that aren't painfully obvious, like speakers. Their listening threshold is low. I'd feel sorry for them if they'd at least make some attempts to listen but it reminds me of my children who'd essentially say at the dinner table "I don't like this. No, I've never tried it but I hate it anyway". < <
Again, I have to admit, you are absolutely bang-on correct on every point. The pathological skeptics of PHP are quite like petulant teenagers, who've barely started growing pubic hair but insist to you that they know everything in the world now. And oblivious to the concept of irony, they will declare that -you're- the clueless one. Since it's no longer "PC" to smack them on the back of the head after they say something stupid like that, what can you do but grin and wait for them to figure out how wrong they are? Even though it may take 20 years before they start to get it?
So why bother with the closed-minded pseudoscientist self-deluded lifelong skeptic who's idea of a hi fidelity system is a QSC amp, a DVD player from Wal-Mart, a parametric EQ, a Radio Shack db meter and 16 speakers? Because for one, so long as you are making correct claims about audio, they will almost always be taking up a contrary point of view. So in the pseudo-objectivist lughead, you have a guaranteed adversary. Without adversaries, these places get -mite-y- boring. (They can be boring enough as it is...). I could post a claim where I declare that speakers are the most important item in the hifi chain and that the best thing you could do to tweak your system is tack egg crates to your wall. But then I'd have 50 people all agreeing with me. And where does it go from there? More agreements? Borrring! Even the adversaries don't want that. Oh they might whine and complain about me, long and loud, but those same whiners are the ones who won't and/or can't leave me alone. Every time they see me coming, they put an extra bowl of popcorn and beer nuts on the table.
Also, I like a challenge, and I like to be challenged. You have to admit, attempting to convince 50 audio hobbyists who are NOT in the habit of ever doing serious listening comparisons in audio (since they have convinced themselves that everything sounds the same), who can't determine all but the most painful differences in audio -because- they are not in the habit of doing serious listening comparisons (since they have convinced themselves that everything sounds the same), and who are so backward in their knowledge of audio that after 30 years of evidence to the contrary, they still think that -cables- are pretty much all the same (good heavens!!), -that- is a challenge. It's a little like teaching Klu Klux Klansmen how to get down and boogie on Soul Train. You gotta love a challenge to even try. It's not for the faint of heart. I may not get far but, that's not really the goal. The goal is to always have fun trying.
Objective Audiophile 2007
I've considered ditching PHP to allow the whiners to boil in their own pudding. But I agree - they LIKE the action, the confrontation. They don't seem to realize how silly they look. Is there nothing in the world they can decide for themselves, without reading about it in some textbook first?
There's another audio website - audioreview.com - that decided to take the sub/ob argument out of their main fora and move it to a audio lab forum where only technical discussions are allowed. It died a quick death - DBT's and other nonsense doesn't stand on its own; it requires someone rational with which to pour it on.
Guess I'll hang, too! :)
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