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Let us work together (communicating by private e-mail) to come up with a test that would convince both of us as to whether or not you could tell when the clever clock was doing its thing. The test could be performed on neutral territory- perhaps at a meeting of the Audio Society of MN.Prior to the test, we could post the testing protocol that we arrive at on this site with the hope that all would agree that the methodology is sound. The test results could be posted here by a neutral third party- perhaps the president of the Audio Society of MN.
What do you say?
Follow Ups:
nt
n
And the best way to get at least an answer based on one system.
My experience of tweaking is that its always system dependent. But I thibk if there is ANY improvement, or perhaps even any difference then we might be able to stop the name calling... even me!
b
nt
That is, the satisfaction of believing that he hears because his ears or his system is better that rupertcat's, (assuming rupertcat doens't hear a difference).Granted Wellfed would be too polite to sneer publically, unlike another inmate I can think of.
Bill Bailey
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See my stereo config ... Good enough is good enough
d
nt
Statistics show (I just made this up) that 98.3% of objectivists never listen to tweaky products that they love to denigrate when their toothless wolfpack (OK, OK a small exaggeration) gather for ritual purposes.
AT least what we have is an objectivist willing to perform this outrageous act IN PUBLIC.
Apart from the possibility that there will be a refusal to admit hearing any difference, and this might be too extreme even for these outre individuals (individual!!!) there seems a genuine chance for someone to be honest and say what they hear.
THere could be a conversion out on the road to Morocco.... Bali... Damascus.
You can prove anything with statistics...sheesh 60% of all people know that...But I agree...
... are below average intelligence, below average height and over average weight.
What a species!
You are the one who needs to take the test to see if you can hear a difference. I would never buy a product or tweak based on if someone else hears an improvement, I have to hear the thing for myself. You are on a road to disappointment having others do your product testing for you!Just my 2 cents.
Does that not seem 'sensible' or is the nature of the clock that it only reveals itself to the pure of heart??
x
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If it's not love, then it's the bomb that'll bring us together
As is the concept of hearing is believing. And the concept that we ALL hear different, and listen for different reasons. Oh, excuse me, GOLDEN ears audiophiles hear different...And the concept that what works for ME, may not work for YOU.
Concepts, of course are NOT reality, just concepts. Many concepts of thought and life are lost upon the narrow-minded, which is fine. What's sad about it is that, besides not being able to comprehend these concepts, the clueless and frightened need to denigrate and attempt to embarass those that approach these things with an open mind. Ad nauseum.
Maybe, just maybe, some may realize and experience those concepts as reality. The narrow minded are afraid of that... Human existence/history in a nut shell!
Ever notice that there probably aren't two identical audio systems listed amongst the thousands in "Inmate Systems"? Not to mention the rooms they are set up in? Yet we are all supposed to hear the same things and have the same experiences...
What a wonderfully wacky place...
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
Ever notice that there probably aren't two identical audio systems listed amongst the thousands in "Inmate Systems"? Not to mention the rooms they are set up in? Yet we are all supposed to hear the same things and have the same experiences..."I've been thinking about starting a thread on this very subject for a while now. It's pretty amazing how little attention this vital topic receives.
"Ever notice that there probably aren't two identical audio systems listed amongst the thousands in "Inmate Systems"? ""Although you've said several interesting things in your post, - the above statement stands out in my mind, as something valuable to think about. By it's very nature, that statement should be a wakeup call for folks to ponder the value of listening experience(s).
Cheers,
If it's not love, then it's the bomb that'll bring us together
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If it's not love, then it's the bomb that'll bring us together
s
If you bought a BMW and thought it improved your driving experiences, how would you react to someone wanting to be convinced that it does as you say?
And it applies equally to clocks or BMWs. The inquirer is look for a reason he/she ought to purchase the device.Some people around here have the notion that if something isn't particularly expensive then one ought buy it and try if. But this is fallacious for a couple reasons. First, some people have very limited budgets; secondly, some people don't see why they should spend any money at all on a thing which, on the face of it, has no prospect of actually delivering the goods.
You must grant to rupertdacat that he is sufficiently open minded that he can be bothered to pursue the highly improbable chance that it might actually have a salutary effect. I for one couldn't be bothered so rupertdacat is a better man than me.
Bill Bailey
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See my stereo config ... Good enough is good enough
a
Why do such contemptuous people waste so much time, over and over, in the dissing? Don't they have some repairs to make around the home?
... Zheeeem, my son, never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
nt
A few items, such as those that are not part of the stereo system circuits and are much too small to affect room acouctics do not have to be tested at all because intelligent people have MUCH BETTER THINGS TO TEST!Anyone who thinks a small clock affects the sound is easily fooled.
Anyone who would waste their time testing a small clock has a lot of time to waste.
Anyone who buys a small clock thinking it will improve the sound of his stereo is an idiot.
Anyone who wastes his time posting about a clock is approaching idiot status ... but not quite there yet.
If this was a Cartier clock it would be another story.
But a TIMEX?
A Mid-fi (and I'm being generous) clock for losers.
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;-)
> Anyone who would waste their time testing a small clock has a lot of time to waste. <...and it did nothing... how would they ever know how much time they wasted? Or how much they had to waste?
Dont give them any ideas next thing you know a hi-end Cartier version will be out.
d
You find the proof in the same place as where you find the proof that it worked.
You find the proof in the same place as where you find the proof that it worked.
And you'll find that bit of fallacy in the trash, filed under appeal to ignorance .
se
nt
I haven't seen any proof one way or the other.se
And that's all I was saying.
And that's all I was saying.
Ah, ok. It seemed at first blush that you were saying that the proof that it did nothing stemmed from the lack of proof that it did something, rather than saying there was no proof either way.
Thanks. My bad.
se
"Similarly, the burden of proof is usually on a person making a new or improbable claim, and the presumption may be that such a claim is false. For instance, suppose that I claim that I was taken by flying saucer to another planet, but when challenged I can supply no evidence of this unusual trip. It would not be an Appeal to Ignorance for you to reason that, since there is no evidence that I visited another planet, therefore I probably didn't do so."
s
x
where can we find proof that it did something???????????You have to prove that it does or did something !!!!!!!!!!
...Pearls Before Sw*ne.
...isn't the statement "The Tice Clock did nothing" in itself a testable claim that the claimant must prove before stating it? At least they have to prove it around here! Hell, I don't even say that oranges are different from apples around here unless I've tested it 6 ways from sunday.
x
I'm comin' to get you all by myself.Where do you live?
If you don't tell me, I'll just ask around and find out who audio salesmen think is their most gullible customer in America.
That would be you.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
...is that any reason to get personal? "...their most gullible customer in America. That would be you."Guess it is, if one lacks even the slightest basis on which to rest his case, when one is disposed to be defensive about it.
clark
Any audibility claim Clark agrees with = needs no proofProof of audibility is never needed for subjective auditions.
If any objective audibility tests are done, they are never good enough ... unless Clark likes the results = then their methodology is "perfect"!
You're bias is showing.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
Where do I find proof of any doubt expressed in any of your posts about the "everything makes a difference" wacko theory of audio, where no claim is ever too bizarre, and no claim is ever questioned?I don't.
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Real easy to read this as saying the clock could/would work, but that it doesn't because it's a Timex and that an EXPENSIVE clock (Cartier) would/could "work".So now, instead of ranting that: "...such as those that are not part of the stereo system circuits and are much too small to affect room acouctics do not have to be tested at all because intelligent people have MUCH BETTER THINGS TO TEST!", you're contradicting yourself.
Makes one wonder whether you're:
A. Not clear on what being a "subjective audiophile 2007" entails. This would be understandable since you're fresh out of the box with this one and obviously not yet broken in. Than again, your 2007 may be based on the Chinese Lunar calendar, and you are actually still a "pre-subjective audiophile 2007". Which means your're still itchin' for measurements...
B. Your sense of humour has failed you. I'll restrain myself from adding "yet again".
C. You're an equipment "snob", i.e. certain products won't/don't work because they don't have the right status symbol name.What anyone decides to test with their own time, intelligent or less than, is their own concern. Take me for example, responding to another of your posts when I could be testing, uh, tasting the new brand of coffee that awaits! It's one you probably haven't heard of, so thusly won't "work"...
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
The Clever Clock is a joke.My remark about the Cartier clock was also a joke.
Maybe you didn't get the joke, so it should be called a "failed joke", like when I say to a friend: "Now you take my wife ... PLEASE!" ... and he doesn't laugh because my wife is standing right behind me ready to hit me upside the head.
And I thought that was funny too.
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Wellfed still believes in Santa & the Tooth Fairy.
A conversation between my father and I back around...oh, 1963 or so:Father: Let's make sure we put the tooth you just lost under the pillow so the Tooth Fairy will bring you some money.
Me: Geez Dad, I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy!
Father: Do you no longer believe in money???
George was dismissed by the press when he released the Tice Clock. 90% of George problems with the press wasn't the quality of his products, but rather his attitude. Those who know George knew he was a little stuck on himself, whereas Fran was put out there to be the voice of the business.The Tice Clock should be considered the first audiophile parallel filter. What George found, but refused to tell people, was he discovered small appliances leak...how about those apples....and sometimes that leakage can have positive effects. The Tice Clock, better known as a everyday alarm clock for that time, leaked using a simple pulse. In digital clock design the pulse is used to count the seconds. Many who have seen the Tice Clock noticed George added the P&S ac plug. We could argue he did it to boost the price of the alarm clock....but what George did not tell you is that he would switch the wiring around at the ac plug to enhance that magnetic build up created by the pulse. Instead of the pulse leaking on the neutral it was now leaking (pulsing) on the hot causing a magnetic build up, or enhanced bass / lower midrange effect.
using similar technology include Euphonic Technology (now defunct, and formerly based out of Iowa, IIRC). They were the original discoverer of the effect, and it came as an off shoot of some research to lower EMF fields off of computer monitors. Amanda Toulon was head of that company, and I believe her ex husband discovered the effect.
Currently Quantum uses similar technology in their products.
In essence the products are dithering the AC, helping lowering the random noise patterns present, making it easier for the PS filtering in most products to eliminate it.I still use my EAU and Quantum products and their removal is extremely noticeable, although I do supplement their use with other PLC's also.
> . We could argue he did it to boost the price of the alarm clock....Wasn't it like $295? A bit much for a fancy power cord, no? Maybe if he sold them for the cost of the alarm clock + the cost of the cord + 10%, people would have been a bit less incredulous. What was that whole TPT treatment, anyways?
> but what George did not tell you is that he would switch the wiring around at the ac plug to enhance that magnetic build up created by the pulse
Wouldn't that be an electrical hazard? It sure wouldn't pass UL testing.
the explanation of how the clock worked or works is the biggest bunch of flim-flam I have ever heard. You're full of it my friend!
Say it isn't so...Now that I think about it, other people make "clocks" too. Like the ones used in the worlds finest digital recording studios. Maybe instead of slaving DAC clocks to stupid jitter-prone transports, we could do what the pros do and slave sources to a DAC that contains a very high-quality master clock.
Nawwww... that would make too much sense - not to mention preclude the need for expensive jitter busters and $1000 digital cables.
Hey. I set my CLC to the right time zone and my music now sounds better.
In Zimbabwe...
If the Robert C. Byrd 100-meter telescope at Green Bank, WV, could pick up the carrier from the Huygens Titan probe (with radiated power about the same as a cell phone) on Titan, then why is it so mysterious that a resonant audio cable within a couple of meters of an RF noise source can pick up the noise?At least the CLC's claimed ability to affect an audio system, unlike the Chip, does not violate the laws of thermodynamics. Whether its effect, if any, is an improvement is another matter.
Again with the EMI/RFI suspicion....fact is, I don't claim the clock affects the audio system, quite the contrary. Please try to pay attention.
Why not fight a duel? I'm thinking maces or flails would be good.
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