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In Reply to: Beauhorn Virtuoso Ref. posted by adog on November 05, 2000 at 07:52:09:
Well, Jeffery, do you know how to stir up a hornets' nest?After years of avoiding getting sucked into Audio Asylum, here I am. Someone, who shall be nameless, enquired whether I would respond to one posting yesterday. In my ignorance, I didn't realise just how much had gone before, and stumbled in.
Now I've discovered what has been going on, and there are certainly a lot of issues that have been raised - and a lot of heat and fog generated.
I don't want to get involved in 'negative campaigning' but an important issue has been raised and I do want to answer it fairly. It's the issue of the alleged 'hardness' of the Virtuosos in comparison with the AvantGardes. It's strange, in a way, how the arguments have gone round in circles, with some participants unaware that they should apply to themselves the same advice that they gave to you.
At the September HiFi Show in London, Jeremy B. was good enough to come into our room to explain in person to me why he chose the AGs over our Virtuosos. Jeremy is very happy with his AGs, and that's the main thing. He said to me exactly what he said in his posting to AA. As reported, I did suggest that the hardness he heard originated in his system and was digital in source.
Jeremy found, however that he was completely comfortable with the AGs in his system. Therefore, I wouldn't seek to persuade him that he'd done anything but the right thing. BUT, when this idea that the Virtuosos sound hard is broadcast in such august and influential surroundings as AA, I think it's only fair to examine this assumption.
There is no question that in almost every Lowther driven speaker I've ever heard the treble can be astringent in the extreme. I have a recording of 'Night on a Bare Mountain' which feels like having barbeque skewers shoved through your ears (conjecture on my part). It's suppose to shrill, but this!!
Indeed, I point this out else where in this correspondence, and quote Thorsten in support.
But if we're due credit for anything at all, we're due credit for smoothing out the Lowther top end in our Virtuosos. As Chris Beeching says in Listener July/August 2000, "The upper reaches, including the treble range, are beautifully sweet and clear, too".
So, there's a paradox here, Jeremy's system reveals the Virtuosos to be hard sounding, compared with the AGs. Chris Beeching finds them as sweet as a nut.
"How can this be? I hear you cry"
I've heard Avantgardes on many occasions, and while I've envied their commercial success, I've never felt threatened by their sound. I think they look stunning, but that's rather how I've felt about the sound, in a different way. UNTIL that fateful day...
Chris Beeching runs a pair of Avantgarde Acoustic Duos and has an excellent system, full of glowing glass, that I'm sure he'll write about one day, if he hasn't already. When I took him a pair of Virtuosos to review, we left them in his hall, and listened for a while to his Duos. Honestly, they sounded so good, I could hardly believe that they were the same speakers that I'd heard so often before. I really liked them. I was somewhat concerned. Would the Virtuosos sound better than this?
Chris's review itself tells the story: "The Beauhorns made each listening experience satisfying, even revelatory." And later: "The massed strings in Barber's Adagio and the full orchestra and double choir in Delius' Mass of Life were all presented so well that you could easily get lost and believe you were there..." I don't think you could say that if there were any trace of hardness.
So, Jeffrey, I think you had it in one when you said that it was because the Virtuosos were more revealing than the AGs. This is not to knock the AGs. Clearly, well set up they are very good to listen to, and I could enjoy them myself. But the avid fans of AG ought not to knock the Beauhorns either.
Let there be peace, and as the gentleman said
Enjoy the Music,
Eric
Follow Ups:
Well, I'll just stick my toes in to make a few simple observations:(1) We heartily welcome other worthy competitors to the field (which would of course include Beauhorn)
(2) Competition is a good thing, as it keeps the participants ever straining forward
(3) Other "horn" speakers that make a significant impact serve to build the overall impression that horn speakers - in general - should be taken seriously. And that's a good thing, as well.
(4) There's enough business to go around. If not, then did we all really plan on selling to the same few hornguys?
(5) So, while I could quote and link to various Avantgarde users, listeners who've been here, and so-called "experts" and/or reviewers, it's of no real value to go there. Ultimately, what THEY say proves nothing (and I say this with not a few great comments to our credit these days).
(6) What counts is how the speaker reaches each of us on a personal, emotional level, by letting the composer/performer's intent speak to us. And any good horn speaker simply communicates more deeply (hope I can say this in the high efficiency forum) than the low-efficiency "high-end" speakers we all know (and which I used to sell before I got converted).
(7) Congratulations to Beauhorn! My hat is off to you. May you continue to enjoy great success...
.
jusbe
.oO AUM Oo.
We've had a really great time with several, in alphabetical order:Art Audio - Jota, Diavolo, & Symphony
BAT - VK-60 (heard great things about the new VK-75SE, but haven't heard it personally)
Electronic Tonalities - Paraglow (a best buy?)
Lamm - ML2
VivA - Aurora II (with 845), Verona, modified Syntesi
Wavelength - Triton Sigs, Duetto (hearing great things about the Gemini & Mercury, but haven't had one to hear yet).Other amps that have offered a glimpse into SET heaven - Cary 300SE (WE 300Bs), 2A3SE, & Wellborn Labs Laurel (WE 300Bs).
By the way, the designers of these products are all great people. I've enjoyed getting to know some of them this past year.
Haven't heard AirTight, Fi, Wavac, or Wright, although I hope to some day.
Also, the TRON from the UK sounds very interesting, but I don't know what US pricing would be.
...and it all seems like great stuff. ET gear seems to be incredible value (and very tweakable) - an important factor since I insist on getting hooked on expensive reissues and vintage vinyl (lately its been the Blue Note RVG 24-bit Japanese remasters; £25 - £30 a pop, and since I discovered them 10 days ago, I already have sixteen!).Art Audio and Tron are very highly regarded over here in the UK; unfortunately, their attendant cost can also be regarded as very high! Another to consider is perhaps the Border Patrol 300B SE amp, with interstage transformers and 3 way valve rectified chokes. Audio lunatics like me have heard of and read extensively about brands such as Wavelength, Viva, Lamm and Wright, but seldom get a chance to hear them.
jusbe
.oO AUM Oo.
Eric,Please remember, the advantage of a point source like the Beauhorns can really help in solidifying imaging, cohesiveness and virtual reality over the Avantgardes. Fixes like angling the mid driver in the AGs helps to a great degree, but the AG Uno/Duo/Tri are **not** point source whereas the Beauhorn is. This is also another advantage IMHO D'Appolitto-type and dual-concentric/coax designs have over the usual tweeter top, mid middle and woofer bottom (or mid top, tweet center and woofer below as in the AGs.
Guess there really is no free lunch or perfect loudspeaker. Only one that forte's in the way the listener prefers.
Enjoy the music,
Steven R. Rochlin
PS: If you attend the CES, first pint of ale on me.
High Eric,I'm sure as a manufacturer, you don't want to get drawn in to a discusion about another manufacturer's products, so I'll steer well clear.
I would however like to correct you on one point. Jeremy did not accuse the Beauhorns of sounding hard. What he actually said was;
> > if I had any criticism of the Beauhorns, it was that they exhibited a slight hardness on transients < <
This is quite different.
Your premise was that the Beauhorns were revealing a digital signature in Jeremy's system that the Avantgardes were not revealing.
But my experience is that digititis, when present, is present as a certain hardness or glassiness in the midrange, especially on female vocal. Hardness heard only on transients however usually has more to do with signal compression somewhere in the system. It is therefore quite feasible that it is physically present in one combination of equipment and completely absent in another.
Steve
Steve, you're quite right, I didn't want to get sucked into this kind of semi-futile tit-for-tat and I certainly don't want to knock another manufacturer's product that I recognise is very good.But your implication now is that there is some kind of compression produced by the Beauhorns and not the AGs.
Steve, if you want to have the last word, and I suspect you will, go ahead, but I'll just quote Thorsten (yet again!):
"In all conventional disciplines (frequency response, phase response, load compatibility this system matches or exceeds anything I ever encountered and when it comes to low distortion and compression I have yet to encounter better. This is most definitely absolute reference grade performance."
Take it up with Thorsten :-)
Eric
Dear Eric,First let me admit that my last post was purely manipulative, for which I apologise.
Its real purpose was to illustrate the complete futility of this claim, counter claim routine. You see how easy it is on a public website to put a spin on anything!
In reality, I very much doubt that Beauhorns compress the signal, but from my own experience, I'm equally certain that Avantgardes wouldn't mask digititis. But as long as the claims are out there on a public forum, they have to be addressed, to the detriment of both manufacturers!
This thread does illustrate to some extent the downside of specialist public forums. People are free to make whatever claims they like. They may be based on controlled testing, long experience, quick impressions, misapplications of a product, poorly executed demos, ignorance or downright malice. Who's to know?
If you look at how this thread developed, it started with someone claiming how good the Beauhorns are then unfortunately went on to inaccurately assign several negatives to the Avantgardes. Its ended with the manufacturer of Beauhorns discussing whether his speakers sound harsh or compressed.
Given that Beauhorns and Avantgardes are two of the finest products in Hi-fi that I am aware of, that's a shame. Both products should be receiving only rave reviews, but that's simply not the nature of our competitive society.
Steve
Steve, I started this thread. I did not "inaccurately assign several negatives to the A.G." What I heard (in many systems, mainly unos and duos) is what I heard. This is also an opinion shared by others, not just me. I also know many people who disagree. This is great! I also followed up by expressing my respect and admiration toward all of the Avantgarde designs (especially the trios). My opinion is just as valid as yours. You are not "the" expert. Your opinion is only yours and "not" the only opinion. Look at all the interest that has been generated, most, sincere and in good nature. Public forums are just that, public. Like I said in a previous post, this is suppose to be "fun". Why now, the false accusations, baiting and deceptions? This does not stregthen your positiion but, severely harms it. You are right, they both are "two of the finest products in hi-fi". Horns and high efficency speakers of any design are a breath of fresh air in an industry dominated by macho power and compressed boxes. Let us celebrate this, debate the pros and cons and most importantly, respect each other and have fun. Jeffrey
Jeffrey,You are quite right. Mine is not the only opinion.
On the Avantgarde website there are around 30 references to reviews, which represent most of the world's best known mag- and web-zines. That encompasses a pretty wide sampling of individual tastes, preferences and opinions, I'm sure you'd agree
Now, if you can find one review to corroborate your findings, performed by a reviewer who actually had Avantgardes in his/her system to test, I will publicly apologise for my assertion that your comments were specious i.e superficially plausible but in reality completely wrong.
Steve
oh. and my reason for the little subterfuge? Simply to illustrate how easy the 'Spin' game is to play
Steve, I am right, yours is not the only opinion, unfortunately, you cannot accept and or understand that. If you want people to accept and respect your opinion, check your arrogance and leave the deception thing alone. THIS IS NOT COOL!!!! I have repeated many times in these posts my admiration towards the Avantgardes. If I could afford a pair of Trios, I might have bought them. As far as the reviews go, I certainly don't need a reviewer's blessing to know what I should or shouldn't listen to. I hear in the Beauhorns what I was hoping to hear in the AGs. I cannot change this fact. I am sure there are amazing systems out there with Avantgardes. Right now , the Beauhorns represent a window into a world of recorded music that I find more real, honest, refreshing and emotionally satisfying than any other speaker I have ever listened to. Jeffrey
Dear, Jeffrey.There is a very fine deference (in my vocabulary) between the “They put to shame any of the AvantGardes ” and “If I could afford a pair of Trios”. I noted that people who actually can not afford some products express a majority of angry comments about those products. Why, Jeffrey? Is it a revenge or an attempt to justify “your choice”?
Romy, the Space Cat
The extortionate representative of Avantgard horns and Beauhorns speakers within Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.
Precision dropping of special designed aerodynamic horns (from the orbit) on the planets of your choice
Call 555-1212 and ask Fillex the Cat by saying "Meow!" 46 times
We accept Visa, MasterCard and bribes by dried mice
Romy, I bought a pair of Avantgarde Trios and changed my mind the day I was to take delivery. I knew I couldn't "afford" to have a speaker which I felt shouted at me and then boomed!!!!!!!!! So, I backed out.I am sure the rewards are worth it but, I am not willing to be subservient to a pair of speakers. I have more in my life than struggling with my hi-fi. I guess there goes your revenge theory. I think you are spending way to much time in your litter box. Try reading "101 Uses for a Dead Cat". That should give your life some purpose. Jeffrey
Never lick your steak knife
It is OK, Steve. He has declared his defeat publicly. Isn’t it technology beautiful? A couple centuries ago I had to kill him in the duel! The unfortunate fact that that dying he dragged with himself a generally listenable speakers. O, well! You never know…
Jeffrey,I tried not to stick my miserable attitude in this conversation but… I would like to note that the way you started this thread (“They put to shame any of the AvantGardes I have experienced”) it is the way is doing on.
I do familiar with subject of this conversation. I am not against you sharing your enthusiasm about Beauhorns (I let it go at this point). I am against your intention to express a “compiled opinion” about the subject with which you are not familiar at all (I mean Avantgards). I know you think you do. I know you think that people who demoed it for you think they do. Well, the Advantages (Trios) are not just the speakers… they are a measurement devise of how bad person is. The folks who did Advantages for you just did not pass the test….
Now, about the fun you proposed. It is very unfortunate fact that this AA’s thread, with you help, going form “How to get better sound” move to the dissuasion “how to sell more speakers”. I do not think it was your intention but it is pretty mach where it ended up and your “They put to shame…” phrase actually did it.
Jeffrey, thank for sharing your opinion. Enjoy your Beauhorns, have fun and should you sometime in future willing to learn more then I wish you to be bless by opportunity to be exposed to proper Advantages setup.
Best regards,
Romy, the quiet CatPS: Certain statements you made have forced me to write following tangentional preface:
No one question your freedom to express. When I was in elementary school I exercised this freedom by blessing my teacher dally with new discovery of the world. Then when I got older I realized that there were inevitable steps that perception should follow through in order to be able to drop a generalization or abstract reality up to the point to be able to convert an option into the rules. If an individual with premature perception express a “new rule” then it will not become an axiom (it may serve short-term marketing purpose though) Meow!
geeeeeeeez! I'm not sure how to respond. I don't speak or understand that language. Could you try to be more cryptic next time?
I guess your assumption is I don't know what I am talking about, have no right to express an innocent but, yes, enthusiastic observation since it is not based in science or formal hypothesis. I am truly sorry I have never heard a system based on any of the Avantgarde designs that I could live with ( I have certainly tried and wanted to and sure hope to). My immediate impressions of the Beauhorns where so much more satisying. I certainly didn't imply the Beauhorns are the greatest speaker ever made , the last word or the "cats meow" ( which I now understand only you can give that blessing to). Please, burn me at the stake, ban me from hi-end elitism, put me out of my heretical misery. I would also like to thank you for promoting me to the number 1 Beauhorn sales person. If this is true, I guess you are no longer Romy the "cat" or "The horn guy" or whatever you are calling yourself tonight but, none other than Mr. Avantgarde. Nice to meet you. Jeffrey
Here it comes! It is a democracy and freedom of the speech! Everybody can do everything! Even me! Well, I do not think that anybody else is in this good situation as I: being paid to write in AA. (I am catsiting a wonderful 170 pound, black, fuzzy puma named Lucky and while she is sleeping and I can do my AA posting while I’m generating my billable hours!)Jeffrey,
I usually teach by associations. You can bullshit during “double blind tests”, you can “look wrongly” at the handle of measuring devise but you can not **** (sorry for my French) with what you feel. Let me explain what I feel regarding your position…
Pretend you’re just lost your virginity 18-year-old girl. You came to a retired whore and are trying to share which her how beautiful and magnificent was your yesterday’s experience. The retired whore is understand your excitement and she is very happy for you but she would like to prevent you for writing a Bible at this point…
Ops! My sweet fuzzy pussy just woke up! Probably I hit the keyboard too enthusiastically. I should do to pet her behind her ear… purrr…purr…
Meow.
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