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In Reply to: Beauhorn Virtuoso Ref. posted by adog on November 05, 2000 at 07:52:09:
>>>The Avantgarde is now heard as having a hard (plastic) electronic glaze, unnatural, aggresive and exaggerated.Well, they certainly can be that way. And these things can be eliminated, too. They do require some system matching and tweaking. And if you don't want it aggressive don't opt for silver.
Kurt
Follow Ups:
Kurt,i sometimes wondered why someone would buy the Beauhorns when they can save a lot of money, have fun, and buy kits and drivers from Lother USA (http://www.lowther-america.com/), Lowther Holland (http://www.lowther.nl/) or Lowther UK (http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.co.uk/) and save a lot of money over the Beauhorns. Yes, the Beauhorn enclosure is beautiful and probably hard to build from scratch, yet the general Lowther guys seems to go for these kits and simply build their own enclosure. No big deal as precut kits are redably available. They do this all the time in Italy. Those Italians have Lowthers and Type-45 amps down to a, er, um, science.
Enjoy the music (Thomas Dolby "She Blinded Me With Science" from memory),
Steven R. Rochlin
"...When she's dancing next to me
"blinding me with science - science!"
"Science!"
I can hear machinery
"blinding me with science - science!"
"Science!"It's poetry in motion
and now she's making love to me
the spheres're in commotion
the elements in harmony
she blinded me with science
"she blinded me with science!"
and hit me with technology"good heavens Miss Sakamoto - you're beautiful!" "
Steve, I am suprised you would make such a reckless claim. Just because Beauhorn uses a Lowther driver does not make all Lowther based speakers the same ( I hope you don't carry that same logic ( or lack of it) to all things ). Nor, does it make for a fast and easy evening build. I guess if so, we just need some scraps of wood, wire from an old lamp and let's see, oh yes, a Lowther driver, PRESTO, " Honey come quick, we got ourselves a Beauhorn". Man that was easy, Tommorrow dear, I will make that Ferrari you always wanted".
Jeffrey
Jeffrey,Ok, i see what my (mis)typings and feelings did not match. My apologies. What i am saying is that there are MANY great Lowther DIY designs... and bad one too. Of course there are many great Lowther driver equipped products and some that are not good. Due to all this confusion i went into my archives (the Enjoy the Music.com website) and noticed the drop dead gorgeous Carfrae that were one of my FAVE sounds at Hi-Fi News & Record Review 1999 show (please see link below). i guess because i visit other countries and shows than many Americans, i get to see how America lags **very** far behind the Japanese and Italians in putting effort towards making your own equipment.
While we are on the subject of Lowther-type designs, at the WCES 1999 Loth-X has the model Azimuth where they take the Lowther, remove the cone/surround, and only use the magnet structure and basket and make a triax driver! AMAZING stuff!!! See http://www.lothx.com/SPEAKERS/STAMM_SERIES/AZIMUTH/HORN_SPEAKER/horn_speaker.html . Alas, they do not just sell the driver as it would be great to seee what the DIY guys could do with it.
What ever happened to the REPS driver? Frank had the original Lowther guys come back and make an ?improved? Lowther driver. i know that Moth Audio, designed by the great Bruce Edgar, made some way-cool looking loudspeakers (Moth website http://www.mothaudio.com/) though they are $7,700 so we are in the same price ballpark.
Lastly, i did have the Robert Lamarre Lowther-equipped Acoustique's here and was not overwhelmed. Another driver with C37 was substituted and that helped to refine the 1-2k peak. So in other words, yes, just using Lowther driver in ANY cabinet does not guarantee success. The Beauhorn guys have really worked hard to make a beautiful product both visually and audibly. i LOVE wood so in many ways i like the way they look better than the Avantgardes. i'm a sucker for natural wood, especially when it has been handcrafted by Italians.
No, i do not make such sweeping generalizations as that is STUPID and i can see how my comment was not what i really meant. Too simplified, not enough details to really say what my mind what thinking in its entirety. Hopefully what i wrote here can give a better idea as i added details about many things. Amazing thing is that the Beauhorn USA distributor and i talked today and he loved the way the Avantgarde Trio sounds whereas i do not. i like the Duo and he does not. Of course this music loving music reproduction hobby all comes down to preferences too.
PHEW, there. Maybe this posting makes more sense and better explains my feelings. In the end i have heard MANY Lowther-type designs. DIY is an option to save money for those with the time and patience, though there are of course kits for tube amps (good ol' Doc Bottlehead and others), loudspeakers (Lowther, Audio Note and some other guys who ellude me) and the wonderful Allen Wright Cable Cookbook for cable brewers. Heck, get the thick Belden and Anixter catalog and go hog wild! Hmmm... ya know, no one i know of makes an MC cartridge kit. They could corner the DIY market!
Enjoy(ing) the music (Genesis "Misunderstanding" right now on, um, seedie),
Steven R. Rochlin
"There must be some misunderstanding
There must be some kind of mistake
I waited in the rain for hours
And you were lateNow it's not like me to say the right thing
But you could've called to let me know
I checked your number twice, don't understand it
So I went home..."
["Amazing thing is that the Beauhorn USA distributor and i talked today and he loved the way the Avantgarde Trio sounds whereas i do not. i like the Duo and he does not. Of course this music loving music reproduction hobby all comes down to preferences too."]I've lived with the DUOs for a while now, and my experience has been that UNOs and DUOs have a pretty consistent sound—it’s just more of a good thing with the DUOs. The difference, say, between music coming at you from speakers as opposed to being immersed in a roomful of music On the other hand, if I absolutely had to choose between putting an extra L2,500 into a cartridge or tonearm or upgrading from UNOs to DUOs, I think I would lean toward the UNOs with the better source. Basically, UNOs can be made to sound very, very good.
TRIO owners who post here seem to indicate the same thing regarding DUOs vs. TRIOs. While DUOs can be made to sound good, TRIOs reportedly offer much more of the same good thing. The problem is that both times I’ve heard the TRIOs, it’s been under challenging circumstances (i.e., shows) and the setup has been a lot bassier and the treble a bit harder than I prefer. Since I assumed this was a setup issue, I find it interesting that you just flat out prefer the DUOs to TRIOs. Can you elaborate on what it is about the TRIOs that doesn’t carry over to the DUOs (or vice versa) and confirm that this wasn’t just a case of hearing poorly set up TRIOs?
Mr. Walker,> > > Can you elaborate on what it is about the TRIOs that doesn’t carry over to the DUOs (or vice versa) and confirm that this wasn’t just a case of hearing poorly set up TRIOs? < < <
For me, there is something about a plasticy midrange that seems to irk me. i have heard the Trios at shows and two different setup/tweaks systems. Maybe i also like the way of straight line vertical alignment of the Uno and Duos as well.
As i grew up loving the old circa 1969-70 Tannoy Gold Monitor dual concentric (tweeter mounted inside the woofers center) and also the KEF 104/2 (D'Apolitto design) there are times i want for even the Duos to be more point source (like the Beauhorns are). Kurt Strains angling of the midrange is very helpful at reducing the vertical stretching of the image to my ears in my system. i have ben playing around more and more with the Duos and right now i made some wrong turns. i unangled the mid and used loudspeaker wired that have silver in them. The result, stretched images and there seems to be some clouding. This weekend i hope to restore the angling and put back the Nirvana S-L loudspeaker wire and jumpers.
The more i play around with the setup, the more i can understand how crucial EVERY DETAIL of setup is with the Avantgarde Acoustic loudspeakers. They can sound like crap, or totally mind blowing IMHO. i believe the F1 analogy used earlier in this discussion thread is correct. When you get close to, or right on the optimal setup you have a world-class vehicle (to be transported into the music). A few bad setup moves and you come in near last in the race (somewhere around the ever hopeful Jaguar team).
Maybe i need to do more research on the Trios, but then again my bank book simply has its limits, too, and i have other hobbies such as medium format photography and collecting timepieces so... i agrew with the other Steve that it is best to insure a top qualuty front end over just upgrading to the Duos over the Trios. For now my fritn end is the Clearaudio Reference Gold (wood body), VOYD turntable/custom arm, cj Primiere 17LS, assorted amplification so i hope this is high enough quality. In the end what REALLY matters is that YOU...
Enjoy the music (VH1 right now at 6:20am, they are playing the Red Hot Chilli Peppers),
Steven R. Rochlin
The "tailorability" of these speakers is great, isn't it? Here you’re trying to reduce the vertical stretching by angling the midrange horns downward, whereas I actually like them better when the imaging is stretched out a bit. Precise imaging can seem a little too “hi-fi” to me. For example, it bugs me when people complain about "10-foot keyboards" and the like. If you go to a recital and close your eyes, a piano really does sound like it's 10-feet wide and hanging about 15 feet in the air. To me, it’s a warning sign if I put on a record and can point to the exact location of each instrument.["Maybe i need to do more research on the Trios, but then again my bank book simply has its limits, too, and i have other hobbies such as medium format photography and collecting timepieces so..."]
What is it about cameras, watches, and audio? I just picked up a Rolleiflex 3.5F yesterday.
Mr. Walker,Well, not streating the imaging is where the Beauhorns excell over the Avantgardes IMHO. Makes me realize that the closr we get to "perfect sound"... the further away it is.
> > > ...What is it about cameras, watches, and audio? I just picked up a Rolleiflex 3.5F yesterday. < < <
Nice camera! May it bring you many years of joyous photogrphic excitement and creativity. i went for the classic Hasselblad 503CW rig. As for timepieces, YIKES, that's almost as bad as my other "habits and hobbies". Enjoy the Roli as it TRULY is a GREAT camera.
Enjoy the music (T2 on TV right now),
Steve "i'll be back" Rochlin
against Bill's diy TAD/Edgar speakers Steve?What about the Beauhorns?
TIA
Mike
Mike,WOW! That's a good question. Bill system is mind-blowingly good last time i heard it (about 6 months ago). When he added the Allen Wright custom preamp i believe it went 5 clicks higher than the first time i hear it a few years ago when Allen was in town. Right now i made some mistakes in setup and need to go back to the Nirvana S-L and re-angle the midrange driver. Sometimes i sit here and try "the impossible" just for shagrins. Hey, it all about having fun and trying new things. i look at all this like toys to play with to (hopefully) enhance my musical pleasures.
Bill's current system is so transparent, beautifully even frequency to frequency and musical that i find it hard to improve (but i bet Bill has changed the system since i last heard it). i just sent Bill two sets of the FINAL Daruma 3II as he reviewed it a few months back and liked them, but i needed them back for my review of the FINAL system in this month's Enjoy the Music.com Review Magazine. i fell lucky to have heard Bill's system. Bill DID hear my system with the Duo's ALMOST optimized, but i did not know about angling the mid back them (MANY thank Kurt Strain!). Ask Bill about my Uno setup. The Duos have, well... Please read my review of the Duos in the upcoming Ultimate Audio available at the CES, stores, or through subscription. Can not let the cat of of the bag for now.
Let's simply say i am sending back my Unos and bought the Duos. Hmmm... i'm not feeling too sleepy, maybe i should start redoing the Duos back to where i felt they were optimum? Naaa, it's Saturday night at 12pm. i know of this club that stays open VERY late...
Enjoy the music (watching something wAcKy on MTV right now called Dumba$$... what a bunch of wackos... but i find i can't seem to make myself change the channel either!),
Steven R. Rochlin
Dear Mr Walker,An insightful post. When I was choosing Avantgardes, my choice was between Duos and Trios. Eventually I went for the Trios on the basis that I could afford the best. A friend decided to buy Uno IIs and while they don't do everything the Trios can, I have not noticed he or I having any less fun in our extended listening sessions, so its certainly something to bear in mind when performing the relative value analysis. Unos IIs are massively capable loudspeakers
As regards Uno vs. Duo vs. Trio I had the opportunity last year to compare all three at Avantgarde's studios in a single listening room, with the same electronics and the same music, everthing well warmed up and installed with both CD and Vinyl sources.
And indeed, all three speakers are very similar in nature. And all three exhibit the same basic characteristics, namely:
- uncolored
- fast
- uncompressed
- transparent
- totally effortless
- ability to throw a huge soundstage
- ability to completely disappear as sound sources
- essentially musical with no hardness, harshness or readily identifiable anomalies whatsoeverThe differences between the 3 models include:
- absolute sound pressure levels vs. room size
- amount of fine detail, ambience and air recovered
- ability to develop images within the soundstage (increasingly 3 dimensional and corporeal)
- size of the soundstage
- bass weight and quality
- Finesse2 analogies may help illustrate what I'm talking about.
The Avantgardes models work like ever increasingly powerful magnifying glasses, making subsequent views increasing clear and detailed. The first 'view' of the music is already a shock in its clarity, detail and naturalness and each move up the scale brings more of the same.
Another example I could use is the cinema. The Unos equate to regular cinema, the duos to wide screen and the Trios to 70mm IMAX.
Interesting to note: Some of the older Trios found in demo set-ups until a while ago had their speaker polarity ID rings on the removeable screwdown element of the binding post.
When we moved from the Duos to the Trios during the demo, the initial Trio sound was inferior to the Duos in a hard to define way. Bass was fine but the music lacked most of the magic of the Duos. Turned out that on re-installation of the speaker cables, the sub-woofers were connected in-phase, for perfect bass but the horns were connected according to the color codes which turned out to be out of phase. If we hadn't found the problem it would have been easy to conclude that the Trio was indeed inferior to the Duo. Reality is different. If Steve loves and prefers Duos, its most likely because he hasn't had the opportunity to hear equally well set-up Trios and not because the Trio is inferior in any respect.
They demonstrated the TRIOs out of phase?! That must have been pretty embarrassing. It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s what was wrong with the ones I heard.Your comments on the raw enjoyment factor produced by UNOs vs. TRIOs are interesting; maybe true audio happiness depends on never hearing anything better than what you already have. I’ve been wondering how one could improve on the DUOs, but the only thing I’ve heard better so far has been an over-the-top Altec setup in Virginia. (That, and of course Beauhorn Virtuosos with no subwoofer or supertweeters and driven by mediocre electronics.)
The guys at Walrus said you didn’t reveal your standing as a leading Avantgarde maven when you visited their shop—that’s a shame, because the DUO setup upstairs is pretty perfunctory, mostly just an eye-catcher for people walking by. Next time you’re in town let me know if you want to hear how the DUOs cope with a mere 2-1/2 watts.
> > They demonstrated the TRIOs out of phase?! That must have been pretty embarrassing. It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s what was wrong with the ones I heard. < <I can't blame Avantgarde for the error as I installed the cables. The point was however that I had removed the binding posts' screwdown collars and on reinstallation, got the phase wrong. Turned out this was very easy to do. While this has been corrected on recent Trios, the pair I demo'd had the older binding posts.
Yeah. Next time I'm in London I'll certainly let you know. I find it fascinating to listen to other people's installations.
At Walrus I had my daughter along (we were between clothes shops!) and anyway wasn't seriously shopping so I'm always a bit reluctant to waste people's time. The guys were very friendly and played me a couple of CD cuts on the Duos (loved the color) then threw on some vinyl. My 16 year old daughter, who couldn't be less interested in matters audio said in a disinterested way, "the record sounds better". "Why", I asked. "Because it sounds more real".
Yeah, sort of, indeed.Ever heard the expession 'you get what you pay for'? There's great satisfaction in building your own kit speakers, sure enough, and if that's what you're after, that's fine.But don't expect them to sound anything like the Beauhorn Virtuosos - they won't, you should know that.
OK, I would say that, wouldn't I? But don't take my word for it, read Thorsten: "On measured performance this whole system [based on the Virtuosos], WHEN SET UP CORRECTLY and when measured in normal listening conditions sets extremely high standards. In all conventional disciplines (frequency response, phase response, load compatibility this system matches or exceeds anything I ever encountered and when it comes to low distortion and compresion I have yet to encounter better. This is most definitely absolute reference grade performance."
Seriously, are you saying DIY kits measure up to this? Surely, you're joking? I don't think it's a good idea to mislead people so wildly.
Eric,Of course i am not saying that they will sound equal, though i have heard AMAZING sounding Lowther designs (if you do not mind the lack of bass or extended highs). Of course the Beauhorn DOES have a must-have (IMHO) subwoofer that perrrrfectly matches the speaker (too bad it is side firing though).
Of course i have Thorstens review, but he added a seprate sub and separate supertweeter set to the Beauhorn setup and i an referring to ONLY using the Beauhorns. The best i have ever heard Lowther drivers was at the Milan Top Audio & Video Show in 1998 driven by a Type-45 amplifier (see link below).
As Meta says, many DIY projects can rival manufactured products. Italians seem to have a well-developed DIY community. Goodnes knows their food makes 99% of USA restaurants seem near dog food status.
Enjoy the music,
Steven R. Rochlin
Oh, woe! Sackcloth and ashes time. I didn't read the rules, I didn't register; my posting hit the trashcan. (I'm not quite sure that I've got it right now, but I tried, Oh, God, how I tried). Let's try again?Steven,
I don't want to make a meal of this, but, yes, the passage I quoted from Thorsten did relate to the use of the Virtuosos and a Visaton sub and also a Visaton horn supertweeter. (Incidentally, I suspect that you're confusing Beauhorn with Carfrae when you talk about sideways firing, must-have subs - the Beauhorns are illustrated here). But this isn't the point. With a longer horn you can get more bass extension. Of course you can. You have to be careful to avoid coloration, is all. But it's not all about bass extension, is it?
Read Thorsten (again):
"However, anyone who has ever heard Lowther based Speakers cannot but admit that almost all Lowther based speakers have some serious Problems soundwise. At the same time Lowthers have a certain something that is hard to describe or explain, but which is extremely attractive.
Lowthers seem to bring you closer to the music. MUCH closer. The price to pay is an often tinny balance with often significant peaks in the upper Midrange that can be VERY irritating." [TNT Audio - loudspeakers tests]I had an email the other day:
"I ... have heard endless praise of your speakers. But I have never heard a Lowther driver that I could stand. As one reviewer said, "I do not know how they got the Lowther driver to sound so good, but they did." I am willing to go with the fact that you did. I have many European friends that dismiss the Lowthers, especially the DX4..."
I suggest that this is not an uncommon view. On the other hand:
"There are no nasty cabinet colourations and none of the peaky response irregularities which so many conventional designs exhibit to one degree or another.
"The Beauhorns' midrange is crystal clear, and sounds remarkably balanced and natural. The upper reaches, including the treble range, are beautifully sweet and clear, too." Chris Beeching, Listener Magazine, July/August 2000][For a copy of the full review, follow the link below].
This is the really significant difference between the Beauhorns and DIY cabinets, not the bass extension. Much development effort went into achieving this natural, sweet sounding treble. The mythology of horn speakers is extensive, and much of it is derogatory and misguided and I'm afraid that extolling the DIY designs and raising peoples' expectations too high will just lead to disatisfaction and reinforcement of the widely-held negative opinions.
By all means get out into the workshop and build those cabinets. Do it for fun, do it to save money, or whatever, but don't think that you're building Beauhorns (or Carfaes).
Whether you're listening, or building, have fun,
Eric@Beauhorn
Eric,Lovly photo. Do you make any enclosures with rounded edges and more curves? Just wondering. You are right in that for a brief moment my mind went to the Carfraes, but then it returned to the underlined b loudspeakers (yours). Seems i have seen SO MANY Lowther-type loudspeakers that it makes the mind boggle. My brain needs a 1,000,000,000 mile tune-up... but the show is closed %-{) :-{) .
i fully agree that every product is unique in that simple reverse engineering may not be the whole Key (unless it is CD/DVD/etc bit for bit copies, and even then it is also how clean the bits are on the digital disc). The DIY guys on the AA DIY board are busy doing their own 47 Labs Gaincard reverse engineering. With so few parts and easy construction it should not be that hard for them BUT they can not build the cool small metal box that MIGHT also play a role in the overall sound of a real 47 Labs gaincard.
In the end if someone wants Beauhorns, Carfraes or whatever, they best buy them from their local dealer. If they want to have fun, heartache, blood, sweat and tears of DIY, more power to 'em. As i have already apologized for my original posting as it did not say in type what my brain was trying to say. Never the less, life should be filled with many joys and A LOT of fun. All those fun years of building Heathkits and eventually working for Heathkit myself brings back the good ol' days.
It's the weekend and i'm going to take a break. Got steaks on the b-b-que. Nothing like the INCREDIBLE Veal in Milan, but there is always next years Top Audio show. Hope to see you there (or the UK show or the upcoming CES in Vegas).Enjoy the music,
Steven "will work to pay for my audio addiction" Rochlin
Steven,I don't want to make a meal of this, but, yes, the passage I quoted from Thorsten did relate to the use of the Virtuosos and a Visaton sub and also a Visaton horn supertweeter. (Incidentally, if you have the space there's no reason to use only one sub, and you can turn them round to point whichever way you like!). But this isn't the point. With a longer horn you can get more bass extension. Of course you can. You have to be careful to avoid coloration, is all. But it's not all about bass extension, is it?
Read Thorsten (again):
"However, anyone who has ever heard Lowther based Speakers cannot but admit that almost all Lowther based speakers have some serious Problems soundwise. At the same time Lowthers have a certain something that is hard to describe or explain, but which is extremely attractive.
Lowthers seem to bring you closer to the music. MUCH closer. The price to pay is an often tinny balance with often significant peaks in the upper Midrange that can be VERY irritating." [TNT Audio - loudspeakers tests]I had an email the other day:
"I ... have heard endless praise of your speakers. But I have never heard a Lowther driver that I could stand. As one reviewer said, "I do not know how they got the Lowther driver to sound so good, but they did." I am willing to go with the fact that you did. I have many European friends that dismiss the Lowthers, especially the DX4..."
I suggest that this is not an uncommon view. On the other hand:
"There are no nasty cabinet colorations and none of the peaky response irregularities which so many conventional designs exhibit to one degree or another.
"The beauhorns' midrange is crystal clear, and sounds remarkably balanced and natural. The upper reaches, including the treble range, are beautifully sweet and clear, too." Chris Beeching, Listener Magazine, July/August 2000][For a copy of the full review, follow the link below].
This is the really significant difference between the Beauhorns and DIY cabinets, not the bass extension. Much development effort went into achieving this natural, sweet sounding treble. The mythology of horn speakers is extensive, and much of it is derogatory and misguided and I'm afraid that extolling the DIY designs and raising peoples' expectations too high will just lead to disatisfaction and reinforcement of the widely-held negative opinions.
By all means get out into the workshop and build those cabinets. Do it for fun, do it to save money, or whatever, but don't think that you're building Beauhorns.
Whether you're listening, or building, have fun,
Eric
Eric,i fully agree with you, it IS all about having fun and enjoying the music. Thanks for the wonderful words of wisdom. Thorsten is also right that "anyone who has ever heard Lowther based Speakers cannot but admit that almost all Lowther based speakers have some serious Problems soundwise. At the same time Lowthers have a certain something that is hard to describe or explain, but which is extremely attractive." Reminds me of my old, long gone Audio Note Ongaku. It had its downfalls, though ALWAYS conveyed the soul of the music.
Enjoy the music (relaxing after a hard day. Smoking a nice cigar and enjoying BV Social Club on vinyl),
Steven "smoke 'em if you got 'em" Rochlin
Enjoy the music,
.
I think that your observations hold not just for Beauhorns, but also for speakers in general, for tube amps and preamps, for interconnects and speaker cables, for audio racks...Kits and DIY guides exist for all of the above -- if you have the time and the expertise, and enjoy building things from scratch, why buy commercial versions of any of these components?
Of course, not all of us DO have the time or the expertise -- I would rather spend what little audio time I have listening to music than swearing at plywood! And while many of the products in my system may be produced in (small) quantity (e.g., Beauhorn speakers, Air Tight amplifier), I consider them to be works of audio art, not just musically but also visually. Just looking at such pieces gives me a great deal of pleasure (as I'm sure it gives you, judging from your "Lust" pages), and I know that I could NEVER build anything that would look as good.
While Kurt's comment is brief, it is consistent with my experience. I now own silver wired Trios. With much tweeking and expense in buying outstanding cabling and amps, I am blown away by the fidelity I am getting. I think the AGs, whether the unos, duos, or trios, should not be approached with a poor front end or amps; they will tell you it immediately. Placement is also crutial.I am told by several whose ears I greatly respect that the Beauhorns sound better than any of the AGs. This weighs heavily on me even though every Lowther based speaker I have ever heard forced me to leave the room immediately. Desirably and if I had the money, I would like to buy the Beauhorns and spend time comparing both speakers. Once this was done I would sell the weaker speaker.
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