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For years now my favorite low-priced speaker has been the Maggie MMG. Well at the Midwest Audio Fest this past weekend, I heard a $530 speaker that I like even better - the Omega Super-3. It uses a small Fostex full-range driver in a superbly executed reflex box. It lets you hear deeper into the music than anything else I've encountered near its price range... well, except for its bigger brothers. I tip my hat to designer Louis Chochos for the nice tonal balance and amazing lack of boxy colorations in his designs (I live with full-range electrostats, so I have a low tolerance for boxiness).My friend who was with me was perhaps even more impressed than I was, and he's owned such speakers as the Quad 57/988/989, Martin Logan Odyssey, Acoustat Model 3, Rogers LS3/5a, and Spendor BC-1.
All three of the models I heard were excellent, but for some reason the little Super-3 seemed to work best in that room (which was way too big for any of them in my opinion).
By the way, the Super-3 isn't up at the Omega site yet, but it's similar to the TS-3 except with a wide, shallow box instead of a narrow, deep one.
Duke
Follow Ups:
Duke, too bad I didn't know you were at MAF, I would have liked to have met you.
Thank you, sir! I kind of made last-minute plans to attend, and didn't really try to find out who else was going. I would like to have met you as well!What part of the country are you in? I'll be in Illinois in a week or so...
Duke
I have talked with you on the phone a few times. I purchased an Atma-Sphere MP-3 from you and also spoke with you once regarding Paul Speltz ZERO autoformers and the Unity horns. I was originally referred to you by Harry Hasbun.
I agree these are some very good speakers for thier price. I have both the original and Super 3 cabinets (Louis sent me the new cabinets so I could swap drivers).I have been running these for some time with our RAM 301 Signature amplifier (redesigned Jolida JD301) with excellent results. This was the amp on the bottom shelf of his rack at the show. I have found that a small sub helps bring that fuller sound into reality.
I also agree with the many statements that these speakers sound their best with lower powered tube amps.
Happy Listening,
ResponseAudio.com
Duke---My, my; your pal has owned quite a collection of compression generators. No wonder a small single-driver thing is right up his alley.
Hey Tom, if you really trade the horns in on an Airstream to tool around the countryside, the Omegas would fit right in. When you join all the retired liberal arts professors for the weekly rubber at the Yogi Jellystone Park campground you can set them up and say, "I used to have Altecs!"
With tongue firmly in cheek and 811B's cranking out the Part Symph. #3, I remain:
Bill
P.S. This horn guy really did like the Omegas for what they were
Bill---I'll travel in a car and stay in hotels. :-) I think I'll keep my Altec 605s, they're pretty small.I don't get this single-driver thing, really. I think lots of hornies are so anti direct-radiator and anti conventional speakers that when they do listen to direct-radiators they gravitate to this single-driver business. Myself, I sure don't hear this single-driver thing as an improvement over conventional direct-radiators, if I'm going to listen to a small direct-radiator it might as well have a tweeter. And a big direct-radiator, say an old JBL L-100, is better yet.
Hammer Dynamics speakers use a fullrange 12" and a super tweeter, many have had good results with the Fostex FT17, also many have modified the crossover significantly. Using a single FR driver in a simple box is also that much cheaper and you can get on with getting the more complex parts of the system optimised for your preferences and requirements and stuff without worrying about a speaker budget so much.me, if it's going to have a separate tweet it had better be damn good. I hate HF unless you know why it's there; and you lose a bunch of that with a crossover. You're more likely to lose accuracy and integration with hf in the electronics (crossover, amp...) because each part of the high frequency signal is that much smaller than what you might feed to a sub say, it can be lost as far back in the chain as the power transformer if not cartridge or in something as small as extra lead on a soldering joint that isn't dirrectly part of the signal path. What it comes down to is that the HF reaching the drivers is that much less likely to be accurate than anything besides subsonics; which are often squeased out of the design bandwidth of any number of components.
I have never heard of the HF getting 'lost' in the signal path. It seems that many amps add glare, hash and what amounts to white noise to the signal, but the fundamental is still there. A problem of veiling the sound rather than attenuating the HF?Much of the problems with amps, I have heard, is in the use of too many and too cheap caps and incorrectly matched iron. Then there is the common practice of driving the holy hell out of every stage to wring the highest output rating possible out of them. These practices do not result in high audio quality by any means.
I agree that most tweeters sound like scratchy pieces of shit, but I attribute that to poor design and implimentation, along with x-o coloration. This sure seems to be the case for most manufactured speakers I have heard these days.
I have been listening to the Esg2 ribbon and it is quite smooth and natural sounding. It seems to blend nicely with the 2484? driver we use it with.
Oh and lest you misunderstand, I do like single FR drivers, as long as they are decent quality. I am amazed what we manage to make these little Fostex 168s do. :)
Later
D
You basically reiterated what i had said. I was trying to say that the hf was less acurate than it needs to be for a consistent presentation IMHO, not that it was attenuated. We're on the same page it seems but i have to work on gettting my message across more clearly i think :-)I'd like to hear a good ribbon though.
I hope you took no offense to my comments. I agree.Have you noticed how you can clean up the HF and the LF gets better at the same time? These ribbons are very clean and airy. They tend to do that.
Later
D
That's because they hold so little energy which makes them so pure sounding. (look at the waterfall plots) The initial leading edge of the bass signal sounds more immediate or *right* with the ribbons -- What are you using the ribbon with?What really kicks is the Esg1 run down to 900 cycles with a good open baffle mid. Have to biamp to get the full effect in my experiance. Little 2 watt SET amps go a lonnnnggg way on these ribbons when biamped properly.
Magnetar
We are using the Esg 3 with a modified 2440 driver in what we hope is a 100hz horn. X-o is 6K or so with Jensen copper foils.LF is provided by 3 18" Selenium woofs in series/ parallel wired to maintain 8 ohm load. They run direct/ PP mounted in 2 garbage can TLs. Hey, I never said we weren't trash. :)
The low/ mid horn is modelled up in matte board and is multi sided like the old stuff. We are comtemplating a sort of tractrix curve, and will fab in steel or stainless. The tweeter is placed up inside the horn, almost touching the diaphragm.
We will work out all the build details in the next couple months, with an eye to VSAC to debut this beast.
Later
D
Did you modify the compression chamber? Are you using the 2440 backwards (dome out) without the phase plug? Are you going to modify the ribbon tweeter to BE the phase plug? Hmmmm -- Horn loaded down to 100 hz?------ Whew!! I think I'd go to to the 2382 phenolic diaphram.. Sounds like you got your work set out for you..
Magnetar
the ribbon are so good me and dave are having a good old time with this stuff the 2440 is really not a 2440 any more it is a different beast and the three 18 are wired in so they give use a 12 ohm load
the system is 100 db set up 101 102 mabe when we put the ribbon in the horn it really cam to life as a system can't what to get it all done it gives use a 30HZ to 20,000 of really 100db + 1watt 1M
\have funnESG are the best tweeter i have heard and they are build soooo goood
really worth the price!!!!josh
I tried the ribbon deep in the throat of these big tractrix horns and didn't like it; 1) the dispersion, response of the tweeter got molested. 2) The midrange (PHL 3451 or JBL 2123H) was negativly effected by it's presence.The smaller tweeter may be better in the throat than the 1. I don't know. Please let me know how you get this to work.
This system you are building sounds like a FUN one! Nothing like moving lot's of air....
I'm going to a MTM with four of the 16 ohm JBL 2123j's on a folded open baffle (200-900-1,800 ? or so) with the ESg1's in the center. MGM bass horns on the bottom firing forward horizontally on the floor against the wall from 200 down to 50, and a single MGM horn doing the duties below 50 down firing in near field behind me. Should really be spine chilling.. Work in progress. WAF-NOT!!
Magnetar
i think one reson it work for use is we are only using the ESG from 7K and up and the 2440 are really down there + thew stuff coming from the 2440 really come off the horns egdes and not from the center of the cone i did not think it would work good but was moving it around and as i started to go in to the horn they just linked up and then sound like one i love how it sound after that really came together i would not think it would work to well unless you are using it higher crossover points but mabe we got lucky or just crazy but really like how it sounds !!!!!sounds like a really fun project you have going on this set up will be a MTM set up to with one 18" on top with it's TL tube then the horn 2440 and ESG in the middle then the push pull 18" woofers on the bottom in to it TL tube can not what to get it done all will be made from steel nickel plated and stainless steel to they will be monsters but fun ones!!!!
thanks talk soon
josh
Magnetar
I agree with you Duke, besides Louis seems like a very easy going, friendly, average joe. BTW, he is a cabinet builder by trade so he's been able to experiment alot with cabinet designs/materials.The Omega's with Cain & Cain Abby's I thought offered some of the best sound at the show. Madisound's FF165K/T90A Fostex driven horns also deserve honorable mention. (Is there a pattern here with all of these using Fostex drivers?)
The Edgar Titans sounded good, but I could never bring myself to spend over $7,000.00 for a set of speakers that look like the front end of an 1870's locomotive. The Edgar Slimlines weren't close to the Titans. Martinelli's speakers sounded pretty good. The Pi's sounded poor, especially the 7 Pi's (might have been all the furniture nearby). Oris 150 with AER drivers were good, but the bass didn't blend in. The Allison's were simply 1970's hi-end hifi at 2003 prices. The Norh's were probably worst of show, but were also some of the cheapest. And I'm not into the lack of vertical imaging that line array's display. The other rooms just didn't grab me, who knows why?
Madisound's FF165K/T90A Fostex driven horns also deserve honorable mention.Were those front loaded horns with the FF165K or 'regular' backhorns?
TIA
Greg B
The Madisound rep indicated that they had plans to soon be offering full kits for each of these rear loaded horns (cabinets would be ready for assembly and unfinished).
The fostex backhorn plans.
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