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Let's say I have a system in an untreated room and it sounds great till about 90dB spl (at listening point), and rather disjointed and midrange-forward above 90dB worsening the higher I get. (ballpark values and it depends vastly on the recording as well).
Due to the extremely high sensitivity of all drivers, all electronics are always running at very low output and there's not a hint of distortion.
So I guess what I'm hearing in an effect of the acoustics / overloading of the room?
Follow Ups:
The patterns, intensity, and spectral content of room reflections increase LINEARLY as the SPL coming out of the speakers goes up. So, from the standpoint of acoustics, room effects are NOT level-dependent.
From the standpoint if psychoacoustics, it's often a different story.
You see, the ear often has a NON-LINEAR perception of linear phenomena. If a reflection or distortion lies below the ear's detection threshold, it is of negligible consequence. But particularly if it is an objectionable reflection or distortion, as the volume level goes up, the ear/brain system has an increasingly unpleasant reaction to it.
So it SOUNDS LIKE the relative amount of distortion is increasing as we go up in SPL, but what's really happening is, the ear/brain system is having a NON-LINEAR PERCEPTION of whatever the distortion is.
Diffraction horns can be offenders in this area, introducing a type of distortion of which the ear has a non-linear perception. So it can sound like the system is distorting and getting harsh as you go up in level, but it's really the ear's perception of a linear distortion that is changing with level.
Duke
Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.
But still you can "overload" a room at a certain spl, and that "max level" is reached faster if the acoustics are so-so? Or ..?
To answer your question: Of course, but the overload is not because the room is behaving differently as the level goes up; it is because our ears are perceiving differently as the level goes up.Having heard the difference that a professional's touch brings to room acoustics, I no longer indulge in the room acoustics equivalent of armchair quarterbacking. My suggestion is to engage a professional, it will be the best few hundred dollars you ever spent. Below is a link to an acoustician who has designed many award-winning studios as well as the two best-sounding rooms I've ever been in, and he is still affordable.
By way of analogy, you don't just "use some capacitance" to do a crossover design. Instead, you figure out exactly how much resistance, capacitance, and inductance you need, and more importantly, where they go in the circuit. Likewise, a professional acoustician can analyze your room (remotely in Jeff Hedback's case) and tell you how much diffusion, absorption, and reflection you need, in what locations, and HOW to do it, to get the best results within your budget and other real-world constraints. Usually no exotic materials are called for - just intelligent use of materials that are fairly inexpensive, and room décor can be taken into account.
So if your speakers are "there" but your room is not, I suggest renting the brains of a professional acoustician. It's what recording industry professionals do, it makes a world of difference, and if you want to you can probably do it so unobtrusively that no one will ever know.
Duke
Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.
Edits: 06/15/17 06/15/17 06/15/17 06/15/17
Let me try again:
To answer your question: Of course, but the overload is not because the room is behaving differently as the level goes up; it is because our ears are perceiving differently as the level goes up.
Having heard the difference that a professional's touch brings to room acoustics, I no longer indulge in the room acoustics equivalent of armchair quarterbacking. My suggestion is to engage a professional, it will be the best few hundred dollars you ever spent. Below is a link to an acoustician who has designed many award-winning studios as well as the two best-sounding rooms I've ever been in, and he is still affordable.
By way of analogy, you don't just "use some capacitance" to do a crossover design. Instead, you figure out exactly how much resistance, capacitance, and inductance you need, and more importantly, where they go in the circuit. Likewise, a professional acoustician can analyze your room (remotely in Jeff Hedback's case) and tell you how much diffusion, absorption, and reflection you need, in what locations, and HOW to do it, to get the best results within your budget and other real-world constraints. Usually no exotic materials are called for - just intelligent use of materials that are fairly inexpensive, and room décor can be taken into account.
So if your speakers are "there" but your room is not, I suggest renting the brains of a professional acoustician. It's what recording industry professionals do, it makes a world of difference, and if you want to you can probably do it so unobtrusively that no one will ever know.
Duke
Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.
Thanks for your answer.
Investing (either time or money) in professional acoustic guidance is something I would love to do whenever I finally live in a house that I own. In the meantime, rugs and books and carpet and sofas it will be I'm afraid :) but it's good to at least be able to comprehend what is going on.
Thing is, my system is a two way active / three way passive and everything is adjustable. And even tho you try to measure what you're doing, separating (by ears or in the measures) the system from the room can be tricky (and in the end they are one, I know, but you gotta be sure the system is right before blaming the room, and conversely.
These guys will be out of your price range, but it still might be fun to peruse their website and maybe learn something. I worked with Russ many years ago at another acoustical firm, before he started his own. These guys know what they're doing. My son and Richard's son were in band together in high school. Richard is a very nice and "regular" guy.
:)
it seems a lot of people have a uninformed opinion
room modes are the same no matter the playback level. its physics.
YES
Right... My room does the same thing.
It's my living room, so, not sure I'm going to do much about it short of a complete make over.
I know, it's not as fun to read books as it is to post on forums and read magazines.
Also, you didn't specify room LxWxH, or openings to other rooms/spaces.
Also, you didn't specify loudspeaker directivity at about 300 Hz to 12KHz.
Also, you didn't specify the listener distance to the speakers.
So, give us more information.
"In an untreated room". You're specifying a fully concrete/reflective room (with outstanding bracing) - walls, floor, ceiling, doors, with essentially 90-100 percent reflection at audio frequencies. Have I got that right?
In studio recording work, that might be called a "reverberation chamber", except that the room shape is probably different than yours.
The short answer to your topic title is: Yes.
But your hypothetical room has other issues, too.
:)
No need to go to all this trouble and answer all these obnoxious questions... it's the room and it's a common thing.
Lokie wrote: " No need to go to all this trouble and answer all these obnoxious questions... it's the room and it's a common thing."
I respectfully beg to differ. Kanedak can only get the most useful and comprehensive answer if he provides a little more information.
Also, it should be noted that the listening room doesn't have to look like an amateur recording studio to be "treated." Carpet on a thick pad, stuffed upholstered sofa and/or chairs, book cases, record cases, etc. can help immensely.
Well I've been trough many changes in my system over the last six months.
Sometimes you hear something that doesn't seem right but it can be hard to point out exactly what the "problem" is.
The object of my question was to be able to include or exclude some possibilities! :)
Now don't get me wrong, I AM very happy with my system.
It did sound better, tho, when I had my old sofa (big, mushy, fabric upholstered sofa) instead of my new vintage LC3 leather sofa (a very good Italian vintage copy) which unfortunately sits higher (had to lift up the horns a few inches to compensate) and more importantly doesn't absorb sound, it reflects it. Therés also this movable panel just behind the sofa, that divides the room in two ; it sounds better when it's wide open but for practical reasons it has to stay closed at the moment. Other than that I would say it's a good room with solid wood on beton floor, high ceilings, solid thick walls - it's an ancient industrial building.
> Also, it should be noted that the listening room doesn't have to look like an amateur recording studio to be "treated." Carpet on a thick pad, stuffed upholstered sofa and/or chairs, book cases, record cases, etc. can help immensely.
+1. My room is as close to acoustically perfect as it gets, without a single obvious treatment. You don't see it as being treated, but it is, by the means as mentioned by Don.
in my primary (living/dining room) and bedroom audio systems. In both rooms, the output became increasingly glary above a certain level. Cured the problem by treating the corners, walls, and first-reflection points of each room--and, in the bedroom system, the front of the between-the-speakers dresser--with appropriate trapping.
Jim
http://jimtranr.com
Edits: 06/14/17
yes, it sounds like the room is asserting itself in your listening-
Happy Listening
As they say, everything matters.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
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