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In Reply to: RE: From Sublime to Ridiculous posted by claudej1@aol.com on May 20, 2017 at 09:45:32
Claude
It's always good to get out PWK's opus Modulation Distortion In Loudspeakers for a re-read. For some reason I had assumed that the Bose 901 came some time after PWK's JAES 1968 paper, but some digging has revealed that the 901's appeared in 1968, and from the description under figure 3 of Pt.2 it seems obvious now that the 901's were the test subjects. It's surprising the degree to which this paper was ignored by the anti-horn Stereophile/TAS audio duopoly where shoe box sized speakers were praised for being "neutral" and "accurate", when AM and FM tests would have shown that they were anything but compared to the Klipschorn which didn't do the "sound stage" as well due to the horn drivers not being in phase. Awhile ago in a Stereophile editorial the author (Steve Gutenberg as I recall) seemed surprised that a live symphony orchestra didn't "image" that well from the cheaper seats compared to the primo seats he was used to getting as comps as a reviewer.
I think you misunderstand the seemingly high prices of some audio equipment because you are looking at the equipment as machines designed to do a specific job which is to play music. Beyond a certain point there are diminishing returns price wise with speakers, and you wind up in the realm of audiophile jewelry where the equipment becomes a place to store and display excess wealth. You wouldn't expect to eat a Faberge egg, nor would you expect to put one under a hen and have it hatch. Now I for one would rather listen to someone's $50,000 two ways than to look over their stock portfolio. And after attending many audio shows I wouldn't expect to walk away feeling envious.
Paul
Follow Ups:
Paul,One more thing you might find interesting. PWK told me that he got much lower distortion figures with the Bose 901 by putting in a corner backwards, which makes sense (not published). He also debunked, in his writings, that the whole 10/90% direct/reverberant field ratio purported to exist exclusively by the Bose design couldn't be avoided with ANY loudspeaker in a room once you achieved a certain distance from it.
As to "jewelry" analogy (really like that one), as a "wealth repository," it's mostly 99% bragging rights over price paid since the maximum resale value is typically about 60% of what was paid as new, when the "next shiny thing," in Audio comes up at the next show.
But to those who can afford those bragging rights, why not? When it obviously floats their boat at the next cocktail party in their oversized living rooms. Faberge Eggs are a better investment than
direct radiator speakers, since, at the very least, track monetary inflation rather than suffer a 40% loss when they change ownership.
Edits: 05/27/17 05/27/17 05/30/17
"at the very least, track monetary inflation rather than suffer a 40% loss when they change ownership."
Actually the big hit is like with a used car - the person that buys it new generally (but not always!) gets a 40%-50% hit on the price when they try to resell it.
When the next owner gets it, and tries it and sells it, it generally doesn't go through another such price drop. Which is why a lot of "gear churners" buy used.
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"We have met the enemy and he is us" - Pogo
Claude
I first heard the "audiophile jewelry" term used some years ago in reference to Cardas by a guy who sold the stuff. Now you have to admit that there's a certain pleasure in hearing a $50,000 two way speaker system (for instance) at a show that doesn't sound as good as what you have at home which cost considerably less.
Paul
That was EXACTLY my point in starting the thread.
You are the only one who gets it right off the bat.
I appreciate your contribution to my, slow growth, audio vocabulary! LOL.
I like the term "Audiophile jewelry."
Especially to a guy like me who only listens to big black horn loaded commercial speakers with ridiculously low IM distortion and high dynamic range that is ready for any type of recording OR live music.
No WAF, GAF, or jewelry here. Just great sound!!
"I like the term "Audiophile jewelry."[...]
No WAF, GAF, or jewelry here. Just great sound!!"
Yeah there is an aspect of "if it sounds good, it needs to look good, too" I am totally OK with that. Calling it "audiophile jewelry" I feel is a little derogatory - in that it is discounting entirely if it is any good or not.
I have seen some really nice looking gear (and modest looking), being top notch for performance.
I have seen things that were both pretty looking and nasty looking not being very good.I totally agree that some things are overbuilt and artificially expensive through Bling. So we're not too far off.
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"We have met the enemy and he is us" - Pogo
Edits: 06/28/17
What is your system, if you don't mind? I'd be curious to know what is in it. Thanks.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
I several 2 channel setups currently dormant, in pieces. Klipsch K-402 horns with TAD 4002 drivers on top of a pair of Peavey FH-1 cabinets containing EVM 15B drivers, with Danley DTS-20 subwoofer (all fed by Yamaha SP2060 96/24 active Xover with JBL/Urei, Yamaha, Adcom, Hafler, Dynaco, PASS Aleph J Class A, Crown K2, various chip power amps. and waiting for Hypex monoblock kits with NC400 modules, supposedly the best of Class D stuff out there. I'm sure I missed several things, but got most of it.Analog setup with old APT/Holman preamp, Adcom 555 Power amp Luxman 121 TT with Ortofon MM cartridge, all driving totally a pair of refurbished ESS/Heil AMT 1D. Also have 2 Klipsch Cornwalls refurbished with newer drivers and Xovers, and 4 Commercial Heresy's with titatnium diaphrgms. A few dozen RAW drivers WMT, etc for future speaker builds and 2 pairs of original ESS AMT with spare diaphragms. Also have a spare pair of Danley TH-50 subwoofers. I just sold Twin 18" subs, 14 Klipsch speaker, including 3 of my customized/ported "Super Heresys"
My current MAIN (best ever) setup is: 2.2/6.2=Front R&L Danley SH-50, CenterFront, SurroundR, SurroundL and CenterRear Sound Physics Labs Unity Summation Apeture horns/TD-1. Yamaha CXA-5000 PrePro main unit with the amazing ESStech 32 bit SABRE DAC chips. One OThorn and One Danley TH-50 Subs Center Front/Center rear, driven by a Crown K2 with mono input. Each of the 6 Danely designed horns has 7 drivers for a total of 42 drivers. One compression driver Tweeter, 4 sealed 5" midranges, and 2 12" woofers per horn box. The main Rnad L dispesion is 50x50 degrees, which keeps the sound focused on the sweet spot and OFF the walls. The TD-1's have a 60Hx40V pattern laying down. The OThorn tapped horn has a 21" B&C driver, and the TH-50 has a monster MTX 15" driver in a tapped horn with a lower Fc. My Bass is +/- 3 db from 18-200 Hz. measured with 1/48th octave resolution at my sweet spot, which is rare and difficult to do.
Oppo 103 for CD 2.1, HDMI out for 6.1 DVD/Blue Ray. Yamaha YPAO "Natural" room EQ for all listening.
At the touch of a button on the remote, I can jump between many modes but my preferred mode is 2.2 for all music, where it's only the Danley SH-50's and the 2 subs front and back that are on. Theater Standard for 6.2.
I think that just about covers it, for this year anyhow. LOL.
I have had 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1 setups for HT, and having that 7th channel in the rear makes ZERO difference on any Blue Ray tested, so it's a waste of money, space, and an amp channel. But, for some rooms layouts, it's needed in case there's a doorway in the center rear. Now that I have 11 channels, I only use 6 but when things shake out I may upgrade to do Dolby ATMOS, but I'll wait my next domicile to do so.
Edits: 05/28/17 05/28/17 05/28/17 05/28/17 05/28/17
Also using Peavey FH1. How do they sound with EVM15B?
Using Klipsch K33 here
I heard JBL 2226 sounds great in those horns too
As former owner of many LaScalas and even more FH-1 bins, the FH-1 is clearly superior, especially with the stiffeners. It measures and simulates better in Hornresp.I once used FH-1 bins with a pair of EV 960 horns with DH-1A drivers. The bass bins had K-33's which, to my surprise, went down to 30 Hz (huge cabin gain). without EQ on the bottom end in my basement office. The K-33 pulls up the lower end while sacrificing it's top end, which was easily PEQ'd without an IM distortion penalty with an active 24/96 Digital Xover.
The EVM 15 L or B, as well as a Klipsch K-43 are at the other end of the performance curve, thinning out the bass while getting a much better midrange response, so it's highly dependent on crossover point and what the mid/treble horn does.
Regardless of which woofer is used, the LaScala bin has less response at 400 Hz. by about 3-4 db. The FH-1 is much better in this regard. Both of them peak at about 140 Hz. so using about a 7 db PEQ attenuation at a Q of about 5 or so will flatten them out, but you have to measure with REW or some other software in your ROOM to know for sure.
Edits: 05/31/17
....nuff said.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Such as?
you have a big house!
Not heard the Danley SH-50 for some time. Planned on trying some but then spent many years traveling for work.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
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