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In Reply to: RE: From Sublime to Ridiculous posted by claudej1@aol.com on May 20, 2017 at 09:45:32
Current measurements of current loudspeakers do not support your conclusion.Furthermore, I am constantly amazed at people who obsess themselves with products they cannot afford and have no intention of considering if they could afford them. The five-figure and six-figure loudspeakers of the world are not intended for most buyers. I am astounded that I have to say that out loud.
A good deal of these megabuck audio products are purchased by the world's most renowned sound engineers who have the career success to afford them and are not deaf, the rest by the wealthy who, as F. Scott Fitzgerald famously wrote in "The Great Gatsby", "are not the same as you and me".
Prices are set by manufacturers to reflect the R&D and the expected sales volume, which in the case of many of these products, number less than 10 copies worldwide. The technology trickles down to the point where the affordable speakers we buy today were once the tech of the megabuck speakers of a decade ago, now selling in volumes commensurate with a lower price point.
That is not a bad thing.
I fail to see the problem. I do wish I had your life, where you have no problems of your own to fuss over and can instead solve the problems of the stupendously wealthy. Try to get a consultant's fee, as that's clearly your business; and then justify your client's spending that money on what amounts to nothing at all, surely a poorer value than getting some music out of the deal.
Unlike most people on Earth, I have had the privilege of speaking directly with Mr Paul Klipsch, a rare privilege indeed as he was somewhat a recluse. You do not need to educate me on his philosophy and approach to loudspeaker design. He was a proponent of low distortion horn loaded systems, but recognized that a piston cone woofer can offer low distortion under the right circumstances, and incorporated such in his otherwise horn loaded offerings. We have six decades of applied research since the Heresy was introduced to help us achieve better results. And yes, I do have and have read every "Dope from Hope" newsletter that came out of his Arkansas office.
And I can say confidently that you are misrepresenting his feelings about the subject, not to mention taking an easy shot at the original 901, (not even the moderately linear Series III model, the first one to actually gain a favourable review in the audio press and which incorporated proprietary drivers).
The first 901 was a terrible speaker overall that was not even Dr. Bose's own idea; he bought what became the Bose Corporation's flagship product and founding audio offering from another, as a revenue stream investment for retirement. Which he did quite nicely, partly because he famously sued anyone who published unfavourable reviews.
Edits: 05/24/17 05/24/17 05/24/17 05/24/17 05/24/17 05/24/17 05/24/17 05/24/17 05/24/17 05/24/17Follow Ups:
"Current measurements of current loudspeakers do not support your conclusion."
If you can provide those measurements at a state SPL, then this statement will cease to be just another opinion."I am astounded that I have to say that out loud."
It's not an obsession, just an observation, with contrasting data.
I'm glad your own words astound you."A good deal of these megabuck audio products are purchased by the world's most renowned sound engineers."
If this is true, again, no real facts given (which products and by whom?). I seriously doubt that a working sound engineer would ever spent 50 grand on an 8" woofer and 1" tweeter when for the same money he/she could get a Wilson or similar product (sublime) that would outperform it, measurably and audibly."Prices are set by manufacturers to reflect the R&D and the expected sales volume, which in the case of many of these products, number less than 10 copies worldwide. The technology trickles down to the point where the affordable speakers we buy today were once the tech of the megabuck speakers of a decade ago, now selling in volumes commensurate with a lower price point."
Yes, the drivers have gotten way better, with better materials, agreed. However it's still, moving coils and diaphragms. The LAWS of Physics are still the same."That is not a bad thing."
Never said it was, I said that an 8" woofer and and 1" tweeter for 50 grand was RIDICULOUS. Rich guys spend millions for exotic cars, but they would never be stupid enough to pay that for a Ford Escort."I fail to see the problem."
Your failure to see it as a simple observation, with the resultant opinion, backed by experience and measurements had nothing to do with your "wish to have my life.""Unlike most people on Earth, I have had the privilege of speaking directly with Mr Paul Klipsch,a rare privilege indeed as he was somewhat a recluse. You do not need to educate me on his philosophy and approach to loudspeaker design."
To quote PWK's most famous line here, to this I say "BULL$hit." My experience and to all those Klipsch engineers who worked for him over the years and currently, says otherwise. He was not a recluse. He was extremely accesible to anyone who would bother. I was just a kid with Khorns back then and he offered to pick up my wife and I in his private plane, gave me a personal tour of lab, factory, took me to his house and played his recordings for me, took me out to lunch and dinner. Treated me like a long lost grandson. As to his principles, he correctly said that any improvement in loudspeakers would be in detail rather than principle."He was a proponent of low distortion horn loaded systems, but recognized that a piston cone woofer can offer low distortion under the right circumstances, and incorporated such in his otherwise horn loaded offerings. We have six decades of applied research since the Heresy was introduced to help us achieve better results. And yes, I do have and have read every "Dope from Hope" newsletter that came out of his Arkansas office."
Assuming that you understood everything he MEANT, which was that the Klipschorn was the optimum size loudspeaker, and that everything else was a compromise with higher distortion. The better results you speak of are still a compromise with the laws of physics."And I can say confidently that you are misrepresenting his feelings about the subject, not to mention taking an easy shot at the original 901, (not even the moderately linear Series III model, the first one to actually gain a favourable review in the audio press and which incorporated proprietary drivers)."
I was responding to a request at the time and it was a great example to support my point.
As to misrepresenting PWK' feelings, I put up a relevant portion of a paper he wrote, and was awarded a Silver Medal for. I doubt that he would assign the term "feelings" to any of this. He didn't care about favorable reviews in what he called "the lay press." He was an AES member and read Scientific American. I witnessed all this first hand."The first 901 was a terrible speaker overall that was not even Dr. Bose's own idea; he bought what became the Bose Corporation's flagship product and founding audio offering from another, as a revenue stream investment for retirement. Which he did quite nicely, partly because he famously sued anyone who published unfavourable reviews."
I have a copy of Dr. Bose's original patent, and it clearly has his name on it. So my evidence says you are misinformed. PWK's papers on IM distortion measurements and math were applauded worldwide by peers and awarded by a learned society, not some magazine reviewer whose prose have little meaning. He only described the speaker without mentioning the brand and confirmed this to me personally, so this is not secondary information.On one hand, I'm glad you took the time to respond. On the other hand, your response was full of presumptions and criticisms without any supporting data whatsoever.
Edits: 05/25/17
A friend (who was a big Bose fan) and I went to a lecture given by Dr. Bose way back in '73 or'74. He talked about the science behind the design of the 901 loudspeaker, and how he came up with the design. It was indeed his design,and was the first loudspeaker produced by the Bose company, and not something he bought from someone else for retirement income.
Thanks for that piece of info, which corroborates the copy of his patent that I purchased many moons ago (in the 70's).As a 23 year forum veteran in 3 different fields, there are always people with strong opinions based on exaggerations, misinformation, innuendo, etc. Much like ALL of the news networks, so much of what is presented is "bad news." Probably because good news doesn't sell.
So it's pretty easy for anyone to fall into the trap of criticizing others, whether it's opinion or fact. It's always difficult to tell the people who think they know from those that do know. It's a lifelong struggle for those who seek the truth from the internet.
So, I admit that my OP was a bit negative, so I deserved certain responses in like kind, I suppose. But my original point has validity since it was targeted to a product with specific driver dimensions.
Now if the original ad I cited had been for a used set of Red Sadurni Horns (best of Axpona about 3 years ago) at $40,000, I never would have made the comment to begin with. Those speakers brought tears of joy to my eyes, literally, a wow moment, having nothing to do with the price tag. A Bugatti Veyron would probably have the same effect on me.
So I do appreciate what it takes to make expensive things for low volume production. So it's more about real VALUE rather than price, eh?
Edits: 06/01/17 06/01/17
I agree with this, since I have a copy of his original patent.
The guy who made the long response to my post was misinformed on that as well as the things he said about Paul Klipsch, who I knew personally and spent quite a bit of time with him.
I guess it's like reading a newspaper. If you don't read, you are uninformed and if you do, you are misinformed.
There are many BSers and I'm not one of them.
In God we trust, all others provide data or first hand experience!!
> "My experience and to all those Klipsch engineers who worked for him over the years and currently, says otherwise. He was not a recluse. He was extremely accesible to anyone who would bother. I was just a kid with Khorns back then and he offered to pick up my wife and I in his private plane, gave me a personal tour of lab, factory, took me to his house and played his recordings for me, took me out to lunch and dinner. Treated me like a long lost grandson. As to his principles, he correctly said that any improvement in loudspeakers would be in detail rather than principle"My experience with PK was very similar, except when he walked up to me in the club I was playing to introduce himself and ask about my DIY JBL 4560 clone PA it was in Arkansas, so the next day I drove to Hope, no need for the plane ride.
As to all the rest, of course I agree. Only fools with more $$$ than they should have would buy those. Engineers? Please. Shown above is what what Floyd Toole has in his living room.
Edits: 05/26/17 05/26/17
This is Dr. Toole's current setup;
This is Dr. Toole's current setup;
I'd be inclined to think your picture is the older one. It would be odd for him to have downsized the TV.
Thanks for the post, Bill. I got your plans for the THTLP, but have yet to make sawdust........Murphy's Corrolary #49: Everything takes longer than it takes."Although I did have a "regular" THT for a time when I live in Indy, built by Jason in Chi town.
I'm not done reading' Toole's book yet, but he has certainly made some significant contributions to the art, so to speak.
He's now retired, but seems like a down to earth guy in his videos.
Spent a bit of time with Don Keele on a few occasions and he had some good things to say as well.
It's a great time to be a music freak, eh? (I"m Canadian too) LOL.
Edits: 05/28/17
nt
No. Who is Joe Rosen?
Canadian chap with parallel and stylistically similar views regarding vintage tube amps.
Ah, I see. I really do like the sound of tubes, from 100 Hz. on up (you really need lots of iron go down there), but I just don't like the heat and the maintenance. Even Saul Marantz himself told me he preferred solid state in the bass (I was barely 20 then).
I like Hypex NC400 for the best of all worlds.
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