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Hi Paul, inmate, Guys
I don't mind explaining things when asked and there is time but arguing is what has made me lose my taste for posting on DIY forums.
If you don't have face book you can still see much of what's there, just google Danley sound labs facebook, at some point a join nag screen will pop up, just click "not now". It's much more current than the web page.
Near the middle at the center (sort of a running history) should be some pix of one of the systems being hung at the stadium, for the high efficiency folks, those 2 horn loaded subwoofers replaced what originally would have been 14 double 18 line array woofers.
Not only can they produce the same spl at the audience but they do it at a lesser percentage of rated power AND go down nearly an octave lower AND has forward directivity.
The other two high efficiency boxes, the J1 and J2 replace a 16 element large scale concert line array and should have at least 15dB of headroom at full tilt, the two are needed because of split level seating requiring different aim points
At the lower center, scroll down to Dec23 for a video fly through of the MB stadium, they mention us out of the blue and no we didn't pay them or even know about it.
Another fun thing has been Disney, if you have seen the Star wars spectacular or Rivers of Light, those are our speaker systems.
And so far as generation loss testing, the reason I have mentioned it more than once is because there are some people who build or modify their loudspeakers and they more than electronics can be /are somewhat mysterious.
Dick Heyser spent that last part of his life trying to build a bridge between what we measure and what we hear. Generation loss testing doesn't make that connection but it's useful because each generation is an increasingly grotesque sonic image of what's wrong, because to the degree it was faithful, there is no alteration.
Now, there is nothing like a red arrow that tells you what to fix, but it can sure point out the area you need to look.
Not only that but often once you hear the warts magnified this way, they are often now audible to you listening straight up.
The issue is again how we hear, part of that process is seeking the information and throwing away the noise so we may not have heard the flaw straight up until you hear it magnified and recognize it's signature. Hope that makes sense.
So why do generation loss recordings?
Well we did it mainly because I was unsure about what I was hearing, as the Unity and then especially Synergy Horns measured more and more like a single driver on a big horn, they also took on a odd quality I could not identify on the TEF. With a soft voice, it got harder and harder to tell how far away the speaker was if your eyes were closed AND the more a pair disappeared when producing a mono phantom or stereo. Until much farther down that road, I had never realized or experienced a mono phantom so strong you were not aware of the right or left speakers as the source. To me it looked better and better but the sound or lack of source depth localization was puzzling.
Initially I used a tower to remove any nearby reflections and a 24/96 MI grade multi channel recorder and m50 microphone. I used several parts of songs that I thought were most revealing and played that at 90dB at 1 meter, recording it with the microphone. Every successive generation the previously recorded mic signal is used as the playback source and recorded yet gain. As the speaker measured more like a single radiation in time, the greater it's survival in gen loss testing. It was also a way to compare competitor's speakers and after a few, we stopped doing it regularly.
The single point of acoustic radiation is part of it I think, one impulse in equals one impulse out not dependent on position and one property of even the largest Synergy horns today is you can stick your head insider while it's playing music and move up/down/left/right and never hear anything but one source of sound somewhere in front of you. You can't hear woofers, mids or tweeters, even when you walk inside the biggest one with a 10 foot tall mouth and 108 drivers.
This also means that in addition to no "minimum distance" and unlike a concert array, it sounds fine at any distance. To the degree they are CD, moving off axis only reduces spl, not the spectral balance so with the proper horn angle and mounting height, one can reduce the variation over a large stadium to about + - 2dB.
One other advantage of using a gen loss test to "point the way" so to speak, is that afterwards anyone can make nice sounding video's capturing the sound with a cheapo camera or iphone, in this case a canon vixia r300. If you have headphones handy, try a couple of these video's.
Here is the Caleb while it was at my shop being tested. This was taken at about 400 feet from the loudspeaker, about twice or three times the maximum usable distance of a large concert line array.
These are 10 foot tall horns are used in stadiums like (2@) FSU and (1@) Kinnick in Iowa. I was at the commissioning for Iowa, here is a video of the Caleb located behind the Hawkeye in the scoreboard. One of these addresses the far side, this video taken 800 feet from the speaker
Someone else's mic in a hall way captures a smaller system during set up
Here is what the far seats sound like;
Here is a really big stadium at LSU, you hear low bass because at the far seats it's still only -3dB at 27Hz;
Not all of them are "end zone or "scoreboard systems" some are distributed on roof tops where weather and stadium design are an issue such as in the Tundra of Greenbay. Here the speakers are in little cubes along the roof line.
Anyway, if you can't get on bookface, try the high efficiency video's.
Great post, Tom. Thanks for the links. Time for a bit more homework!
Will you be judging Midwest again this year?
Thanks again for adding to the body of horn knowledge, and for providing some entertaining distractions from looking for occult meanings and phantoms on the radar here.
Last night I attended the AES meet touring the facilities at he Old Town School here in Chicago. In a room full of platinum eared experts nobody argued, and nobody even disagreed with anyone! But nobody showed up masked either. This reminded me when you showed the Unitys at an AES meet back in 2007. The room used was difficult (to say the least!) and the bottom end was limited because you couldn't bring the subs, but the sound was very impressive. I brought a Stereophile reading friend with and even he liked it. It's interesting that while you are focused on coverage, there are some people going the other way. That same friend took me to a Magico demo at one of the local audiophile salons sometime back. The Magicos were in a heavily treated room and they had a very narrow one-seat sweet spot! My friend seemed oblivious to this, even after I asked him if he has ever heard half of the CSO disappear if you moved one seat left or right! My friend was still impressed with these one seat wonders however, and wanted to go back for another listen later. I heard the Magicos at the last Axpona here and they didn't have the one seat wonder effect, so I have to write it off to the room treatment and set up.
Richard Heyser was definitely one of the heavies in audio. One of his interests was the similarities of the paradoxes in the quantum/macro worlds in physics, and the paradoxes between what we hear and measure in audio. Doug Jones made Heyser's notebooks available online and I printed several out, but it's rough going trying to read Heyser's handwriting, and making corrections to make it a readable text. Hopefully some day these notebooks can be made into a readable book. I'd be happy to contribute what little I have.
And thanks again for the horn continuum concept, I had kind of thought of this, but you got there first by putting it into words here. And oh yeah, I've had to eat my pejorative comments on conical horns after hearing yours, but I'm not going to thank you for that lunch ; )
Hey, Tom, I have a question. In venues and in pro audio magazines, I often see speaker arrays being "flown" from the ceiling, and I often think "How do they know how much weight that structure will hold?". I 'get it' that they're often concave and so are pretty strong, but still, do they just cross their fingers and hope for the best, or are there weight limit specs which the tour sound companies get in the contract before setting up? I mean, seriously, when the sound crew is hanging literally tons of speakers from a ceiling, that's gotta be an issue.
Fortunately, I got out of the tour P.A. field while we were still doing floor and scaffolding setups, so I haven't had those nightmares to worry about!
They know in advance exactly how many hanging points there are and their load capacity for any given venue.
Google is your friend: Sorry, no pictures though.
It's good to hear that Tom is still in business and doing well, especially after a suggestion made on this forum that he contact a rival who sells arrays and "...learn from him". This was like telling someone who has designed an innovative high performance sports car that they should go down to the local minivan dealer and learn something. Years ago I got into the habit of making paper copies of good reference material from this forum, as I didn't always have access to the family computer. Now we have several computers but the paper material is still here and it's arranged into folders and binders. Bruce Edgar has a big one. Even bigger is one for W.H. "Bill" Geiger, the Sherlock Holmes of horn theory. But the biggest folder of all says Danley on it.
Disclaimer: I don't own or sell any Danley products. The closest Tom has come to making any money from me would be from the ticket prices I have paid for the Omnimax movie theater here in Chicago which uses Danley designed subwoofers. It currently has the best movie sound I've heard.
I actually have those same 4 Omnimax subwoofers in my home. Count me as a Danley Sound labs fan as well. and I do own a boatload of products that Tom designed..........as much as I can afford, anyhow.
On that note, I now have a modified Pass designed Aleph J All FET class A, single ended amplifier with double the output devices, which puts me in sonic nirvana in the micro detail department. Tom Danley's Unity Summation Aperture and Synergy Horns, along with tapped horn subs are the best I've ever owned.
Clean, clear, DYNAMICS to "stupid loud" levels if need be, while delivering the detail of Electro Static speakers.
They BELONG on this forum since the readers seek 100 db/watt efficiency here by way of the "high efficiency" sub division.
Those who have not heard this are really missing out on great stuff.
It's good to hear from someone else who has actually heard Tom's designs and who can testify that that horns can perform well in the home.
It started with Klipschorns when I was 14. Took a while to be able to afford a pair, but I've been a horn guy for over 40 years. Even spent a day with Paul Klipsch back in '85 when I was still a "kid." He made my wife and I feel like we were his long lost grand kids that day. He was the same age as my grandmother who out lived him by 7 years.
The bigger the horn, the better the horn.
PWK was a character indeed, and everyone who ever met him had a story to tell. I met him back in the 90's and I still have an autographed pic of him he gave me hung near my speakers. His magnum opus Modulation Distortion In Loudspeakers clearly proved the advantage horns have over direct radiators in that horns are capable of producing much lower amplitude modulation and frequency modulation distortion. Anti-horn attitudes in the hi-end magazines started appearing about the same time as high Watt/low THD transistor amps appeared with lots of negative feedback used to get the better numbers. What a coincidence!
When I went to his house, he was running a BGW 100 watt amp and half of a crown D60 on his center channel.
He only played his own recordings, all from only 2 spaced omni mikes. Heard several and they sounded great.
His own Klipshorns were just regular ones from the factory floor, but he used 4x4x4 ft. false corners behind them.
He referred to commercial recordings as "dilute stereo."
I could go on.
Apparently you met him after he sold the company to Fred Klipsch, who built up the company to about 8x the size it was in 1989.
Someone asked him what he thought about tubes and he just said "You have to change the tubes too much". I wonder if the output transistors for those BGW and Crown amps are still available, many from that era are not. Another question was 'What do you think about wires?". He answered "I use 16 gauge lamp cord", but the questioner persisted with "Have you tried different wires?", but the answer was again "I use 16 gauge lamp cord". I think any question involving wires would have gotten this answer. He was not involved in all the details of the company at that point, and someone asked him whether one of the new Klipsch box speaker models on display was sealed or vented. He said "That's a good question" and he got up and walked over to one of the big boxes and hefted it up to see, to the amusement of all. He was a brilliant engineer who could also be a standup comic at the same time.
My day with him was early August, 1985. He was not very involved with the daily running of the company then. Jim Hunter didn't have gray hair yet, and Roy Delgado (future Chief Engineer) had not been hired out of college yet, to become their most prolific speaker designer, including the legendary/Amazing Jubilee bass and the K402 mid horns.
I met Gary Gillum that day, who was chief engineer and co-designer of the MWM bass bin (which I had in my house for a while.
My switching from Klipschorns, to Klipsch Pro (big stack), now down to mostly Danley stuff is because of how SMALL Danley's multi driver horns are for their amazing bandwidth. Unmatched by anything these discerning ears have heard.
The best impressive sound heard at Axpona in Chicago a few years were Sadurni Horns, but the dollar and space cost, I leave to others, with a fatter wallet than mine.
Best bang for buck had to be the Spatial OB speakers at less than $2,000 for a new pair. Otherwise EVERYTHING there is overpriced and underperforming.
That's very cool that you were at Paul Klipsch's home, and must be a very memorable experience.
It's also something of a verification that "time alignment" isn't as critical as some people would like us to believe.
The most aurally excellent recordings I have are ones which were made with just two microphones, whether widely-spaced omni's (A-B), ORTF, or X-Y, with high quality equipment. The biggest problem with achieving excellent results when doing this is THE ROOM, followed by dealing with whatever sound reinforcement system might also be in the equation. Most public venues and performances aren't well-suited to "minimalist" miking, and so, there are flaws, and people making noises (especially with A-B!). But when you have a good room, and have control over the mic placement and extraneous sounds, it can be awesome.
"go down to the local minivan dealer and learn something"
Whoa, dude! Talk about an insult!
I haven't talked with John in probably 20 years, although I'd like to. It'd be nice to catch up - maybe we will someday. He doesn't have the time, since he's busy running a worldwide company with multiple projects going on at any given time, and our time together as teacher and student was a long time ago. We talked briefly in about '79 or '81, shortly after he started Meyer Sound and I made a feeble attempt to promote his products. We met again in about '87 or '90 or so, at InfoComm in Dallas.
Anyway, your comment was pretty harsh.
I don't have a beef with Tom Danley. He seems to be a very smart guy. We just don't always agree - for example, on the usefulness of line arrays. I quite like his approach with regard to the so-called "point source" integrated horn design, but they're not appropriate for all situations, either. Probably the biggest thing which bothers me is when he continually comes on here touting his "generational loss" "test" and his products. Outside of Audio Asylum, I've never heard of the Jericho, the SH-50, the "tapped horn", etc. It's all only because of his promotion of his stuff here. That just rubs me the wrong way.
Oh, hey, you gotta look up the "Matterhorn" low frequency high output loudspeaker. THAT was very cool!
The "mini van" comment was an attempt to make a humorous parody (in automotive terms) of your dismissive suggestion that Tom Danley contact a competitor to learn something. As to whether your suggestion or my parody is the harsher of the two, I'll leave it to the comments from the other posters from that now found original post.
I have nothing against arrays, Don Keele's CBT36 array is one of the most amazing speakers I've ever heard. With all the reverence you read in Stereophile and TAS for the "soundstage", the CBT36's really delivered, they have a stable center phantom image even if you walk towards them until you are between them! They are low efficiency though. I had Don play my fave test track: Stravinsky's Fireworks on Mercury CD, and I had him adjust the volume where I would have it at home to show off my EV horn rig. The 700 Watt amp hard clipped at one of the orchestral peaks, but it never clips on my horns with 15 Watts per channel (though I haven't watched it on a scope). This is the problem with arrays in pro-sound: whether you can accept the low efficiency in order to get the space they save over a big horn rig. I also heard the CBT36's at an AES demo with 2000 Watts and there was no clipping even at quite loud levels. Arrays have always seemed to me to take second banana to big horn rigs in pro-sound, and that's just been my experience. As far as I know I've never heard any of John Meyer's products, and I would not have any reason to make any comments either way about them. If you think the Meyer arrays sound better than Tom's Unity designs, then you should explain why, and I think you would actually need to hear Tom's Unitys to make a credible comparison, and you have not said if you have heard them.
You claim that you don't have a beef with Tom Danley other than what you see as self promotion. In the past Tom has had a stalker on this forum, and your dismissive comments and anonymous moniker have a similar style to some of the multiple personalities that person was known to use. Just a coincidence? I still dunno.
Tom has a history on this forum of offering frequent helpful discussion of what can be complex engineering concepts. Most people here would accept some self promotion, especially if it's used to explain complex acoustic subjects. Bruce Edgar once stated that much of his efforts went into educating people about common misperceptions about horns. Sound Practices editor Joe Roberts has noted the extreme resistance he encountered when he promoted horns as the ultimate speakers for the then new to the US SET's. Your main contribution here seems to be to tell people not to bother with horns. You made a comment in the post down page from this thread that the "they are here" nature of a recording is largely due to the recording itself. If this were true we could all save a lot of money and just worry about having good recordings. J.C. Morrison basically told Herb Reichert this back in the day, until Herb corrupted him by introducing him to SET's.
I don't know what your problem is regarding me, but you seem to have a bug up your butt for some reason.
In any case, you wrote:
"In the past Tom has had a stalker on this forum, and your dismissive comments and anonymous moniker have a similar style to some of the multiple personalities that person was known to use. Just a coincidence?"
You really need to back off on this, unless you're fine with being a stalker yourself.
I think Tom is a fine and knowledgeable person. We just disagree now and then. No big deal.
Did I mention the Matterhorn LOUDspeaker? Oh, yes, I DID. Did I mention that I quite like his tapped horn "point source" approach? Oh, yes, I DID.
"As far as I know I've never heard any of John Meyer's products, and I would not have any reason to make any comments either way about them."
That's all fine and good. But you've probably heard or seen them, and just don't know it. Maybe you were at AES in 2014 in L.A. His speakers were everywhere. The roster of clients is a "who's who" of musicians and concert events and venues. Anyway, it doesn't matter - as I wrote, we haven't talked in 20 years. I'm not a fanboy... he knows his stuff, and that's all. Next time I'm in Berkeley, I'll see if we can get together. Please, give it a rest.
Many of your posts are like quantum super positions in that they can be in different places at the same time. Your suggestion that Tom contact Meyer sound and learn something could be taken for instance as an insult, and Tom took the high road in his reply. Or it could be taken as hilarious with Tom taking the part of the straight man. Your posts are funnier than my one dimensional posts, and I'm just plain jealous I have to admit.
In the horn thread down page you objected to the term "beaming" being used in relation to Quads, and you suggested that the poster read Olson's Music, Physics and Engineering. I got out my Dover reprint from the 70's but there is no listing of "beaming" in the index. I decided to take a chance and used the book as a planchette on a ouija board. I waited several minutes but the book never moved, though I mentally prepared myself for a message such as "Renounce horns!" which never came. Then it dawned on me that you can't experience beaming if there is no music playing on the speakers, and like a dope I forgot to put anything on. Very clever sir! I never would have tried this if it wasn't for you.
If you really want to distance yourself from the ghosts of sock puppets past you could try to be less argumentative and more helpful, but maybe I'm missing something there too. I suspect that you actually like horns but are making pejorative comments about them in an effort to get the prices down on vintage compression drivers. If so I salute your efforts. Of course I have to keep opening my big yap praising horns which is contra to this end. So I'll be looking for secret meaning in your posts in the future.
This is the second time, that I know of, in recent days where you've made reference to a comment I may have made some time ago. To have any credibility regarding this, you really should reference the post and the topic of discussion. I politely asked you earlier to do this, but you haven't. Especially now that you've mentioned it twice, it would be nice if you would.
This is the post in question.
I remember thinking that referencing Meyer Sound was a joke. I just checked their site and it seems they updated their inventory. Ten years ago when I was really researching horns I stumbled on that sight and thought it was very 1974. Diffraction horns and all.
I also disagree with your post in that I don't think Mr. Danley has ever shamelessly promoted his products at all. He does believe they are an advancement in horn theory and implementation, and he may well be right.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Thanks for your diligent detective work! I just didn't look back far enough as it stuck in my mind like a diamond drill, so I began to suspect that I was looking for a deleted post. Well there's always hard drinking and therapy when the things you can't remember don't balance out the things you can't forget.
It's getting scary how time flies.
And I didn't want you to think you were crazy. :)
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Actually I thought I was being "gaslighted" by a former sock puppeteer who used to post here. He was quite logical in his normal persona, but his alter egos were very argumentative and prone to unsubstantiated statements. He left and formed his own high efficiency forum (gone now), and he was known to sock puppet there too, sometimes answering his own questions. He did admit once that he had behaved badly here.
I guess you aren't referring to Romy since his forum is still around. I don't mind opinionated people as long as they are knowledgeable in the field, even if they are abrasive. Rigidly dogmatic can get old after a while.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Ha! That's great sleuth work, Mr. Steady!
Ya know, John Meyer taught me a LOT about horns and loudspeakers. That guy knows his stuff. www.meyersound.com. He was designing speaker systems WAY back in the late '60s for A&M Records and McCune Sound. Heck, when I was at McCune last year - get this - they have a truckload of new Meyer speakers, AND, still have some of the old big boxes (sitting on shelves) from back in the day!
It only took a minute.
I'm not knocking John Meyer. Sound reinforcement and high fidelity home audio are two different things. I'm glad he is a mentor. I would like to have a conversation about horns with him myself. I am quite sure that like all people who are interested in horns Mr. Meyer is intrigued by Danley's designs.
I'm not trying to make excuses for you, but I do seem to remember you had just gotten out of surgery a couple days before this post, and I know for a fact that people who come out of anesthesia are out of sorts for a while.
Then again you have been known to troll! :) :) :) (It's a punchline)
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
You seem to remember it better than I do now!
There once was a time when sock puppets roamed the Hi-E forum. This actually predated the time when corporations became people and we began to wait for Texas to put one to death. The moderators have put some sock puppets to death here however. Have we met? Is your name Wayne? I would be happy to appologize for besmirching the name of a real person with a single personality, and give thanks for the correction too. But as to apologizing to a sock puppet, well it ain't gonna happen.
No, my name is not Wayne, although a nice acquaintance is Wayne, nicknamed "Waynard". You can learn all about him at waynebergeron.com. We both play trumpet, but he's a little better. ;)
Through the years several good people on this forum have left, or greatly curtailed their participation due to the tediousness of arguing with anonymous posters who have nothing to lose than their clever monikers. Forget giving people vague advice to read up on horn theory, just do a forum search with WHG. There's enough of a body of work here from Bill Geiger to assemble into a good book. The fact that you are on a high efficiency forum and you are telling people that horns don't work well in the home makes it difficult to take you seriously. Now you present the name of a friend as a reference that you are a real person, but you still need to be anonymous?
Halloween is long over
The post in question has apparently been deleted by the original poster, and I assumed that the right thing had therefore been done, and I said so. If someone else has spoofed your moniker with a look-alike (and this has happened in the past here) or hacked your password, then this is something that everyone and the moderators should be aware of. I can't tell if you are denying that you told Tom Danley to go to a competitor and "learn from him", or that you are saying that you don't remember if you said this. At the very least it would be a good idea for you to change your password here.
That'd be great, except I don't do the face-b thingy.
Another site maybe?
...Same problem here. I've resisted till now but may not be able to much longer. The force is with Facebook (and other "social media").
You can always get a FB account under an anonymous name like ROBOT123456789, and not actually contact friends on it - just use it as an info source (e.g. tours and gigs) and to look at commercial pages.
As far as I know, if you install the FB app, it will access everything on that device (including creepy stuff like scanning the photos in your phone's memory, and then pitching advertising at you based on what it finds), but this doesn't happen if you use it as a 'normal' web page, via a browser.
Zuckerberg to Angela Merkel on a hot mic, "We have work to do."
I'll let you in on a little secret. All of the big names in the computer/internet/social media industry work hand in glove with the intelligence agencies. The only one who wouldn't play ball was Steve Jobs, and he got "cancer'd."
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
I occassionaly (seriously, I cannot spell that word!) wonder what the world will be like when companies like Google and Facebook and Wikipedia and Audio Asylum are bought, or are in the trash bin of history. That's actually a kind of scary thought.
Maybe it's just me. Yeah, probably.
Best cut down on the coffee...
I don't "like" FB; therefore I don't exist.
What to do with all this audio gear and music if I don't exist?
I'll just go on living a meager, stunted life--listening to music, reading and enjoying a stogie, walks in fresh air and sunshine, etc.
I exist just fine without Facebook, and I always have. Part of my objection to FB is belief in the old saying,"Fool's names and monkey's faces often appear in public places." Also I don't like Zuckerberg's politics or attitude and I don't want to do anything to make him richer. Finally I have lots of good fun without complicating my life with fake book.
100% agree with everything said.
... and also I have a further issue with fact that it is not actually a book.
"... and also I have a further issue with fact that it is not actually a book."
Snortin' OJ out my nose.
I know, hey.
Well, not about the snorting OJ thing, (reckon there was an OJ that knew a thing or two about that though) just happy see you clarify that it was out of your nose and not the other way :-)
Best to you,
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