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In Reply to: RE: Tasteful finish for baby Classic horn ? posted by freddyi on March 26, 2017 at 00:26:54
so have you got ideas for something new based upon Karlson? I have been pondering a new set of bass/mid cabinets for a pair of tens (per cabinet) which I have now, I was considering sealed boxes but I have also be wanting to build something Karlson based for a long time now. I had some very good results with Karlson styled cabinets in the past. my concern has been can I achieve wide enough bandwidth? Can I achieve a 30Hz. to 600 05 700Hz. range? Any comments? thanks appreciate your thoughts. moray james.
- well - the Karlsonator 8 has a tuning of ~42Hz and Karlsonator 12 ~37Hz, so with some drivers, will reach down to tuning. I ran Beta10cx in the Karlsonator10 but thought it was lackluster in the mids compared to some fullrange speakers - that might have partly been Eminence's crossover of 2mH/10uF lowpass, 3.3uF/0.33mH highpass. The "Osprey" crossover might work better.
if you have drivers in mind, then ask (or I will ask) xrk971 at Diyaudio to simulate them in a Karlsonator - he'll adjust the height and width to optimize response in his Akabak model. I think that model works pretty well - maybe better than his K15 model.
with a subwoofer I could be happy with the heritage Karlsons such as K12 with a Kappa 12a or similar woofer or high quality coax. It could be built as an "X12" with internal K-tube mounted on the board above the baffle.
here's Beta10cx in a tiny "K10" (~0.62 scale K15) versus Beta10cx in the ~ 6 cubic foot Karlsonator 12. The Karlsonator 12 went lower in this same room in a different position and four feet off the floor.
The little (a bit less than 2 cubic feet) K10 cabinet has klobbering gain in the 100-200Hz octave and needs to be elevated or pulled back. It should play nice outdoors.
Karlsonator12 measured and sounded better with 12lta than Beta10cx. Although I think Beta10cx may have more power. Beta10cx in the Karlsonator never had much cone movement.
Here's 12LTa playing a vocal
0.62 scaled K15 Beta10cx
Thanks Fred: I have four Klipsch KLF20 woofers these are said to me cermic motor versions of the CF3/4 drivers which have neo motors. I have had bots cf series tens and KLF series tens and preferred the KLF with the ceramic motors. So far as I know I have not seen T/S data on these and I have no way to measure it now.I suspect Fs to be in the low 30 or high 20Hz. range on these. I also want to keep the cabinet size down as my life is down sizing in most ways now.I have heard dual 8 speakers which could make all the case I want and more so a good single ten in a Karson style cabinet should be able to rock hard enough for me and that would only take half the volume of a pair of tens. The very best bass that I have had using Klipsch components was with a KLF20 driver in a Quartet cabinet (a little bit smaller than a Forte cabinet in volume) which was 1/3 stuffed with high density fiberglass(top 1/3 of the cabinet)and 2.5 ounces of extra dead weight on the passive to re tune it lower. Superb quality deep bass with lots or impact and punch as well.
So how is it that a K12 drops so much lower than a K15 which has a larger volume? Is this simply a factor of driver Fs? I wold really like to be able to get a woofer into the low 39 Hz rand or a little lower if possible as it has such a huge impact upon the perceived scale of the loudspeaker, the bass weight balances the loudspeaker and provides authority to the reproduction. I want to go two way with a double cutaway K-Tube on an EV DH1A compression driver. so you can understand my desire to achieve flatish response up to 700Hs or so.
Fred as an aside I really love the visual esthetic of your Beta 10 cabinet. Thanks for the discussion. moray james.
in general, GregB's "Karlsonator" drops lower than a traditional Karlsoon. A K12 in 2pi with strong motor/low mass speaker will rolloff below 70Hz - but has a lot of "hit" - I prefer a K12 to my Klipschorns - but its not quite one on one with K-horn running a horn mid vs a PYM1298 (like Kappa12a) carrying the mids.
to get down low might mean pretty big - I think XRK971\s "XKi" alignment for either W8-1772 or Beta10cx was 60 liters total for one drive. That alignment seems to call for a 3:1 rear chamber to front chamber size ratio. Front chamber design/aspect and the opening are non trivial and bad result have happened. Karlson's originals with appropriate drivers play very nice.
Dual Karlsonator and dual XKi can be simulated - how low do you need?
Here's some specs Posted for a Klipsch CLF20 woofer
REVC 5.77 OHMS - DC resistance
Le 1.4056 mh
VAS 78.1875 L - 2.76116 ft^3
Sensitivity 91.1884 db 1w/1m
what is the cone area (or effective diameter) for your Klipsch woofer?
I wonder if there's any subjective improvement to using a DCR with only one external vent?
Briggs placed his acoustic filter as to divide an enclosure into 2:1 chamber ratios - does that ratio hold in a traditional Karlson-type's rear chamber? - or just the rear to front ratio?
Hey thanks Fred that's great information. The drivers are ten inch with about a 1/2" suspension. They have a good size motor as can be seen by the provided Bl value. As I said I am considering using the factory cabinet volume but solid stuffed with high density fiberglass and using only one woofer per cabinet.
Have you built up one of the cabinets shown? How did it work and how did you go about tuning it? moray james.
thanks to a great builder (Triticum Audoi) I have pairs of the K's below. As drawn by GregB, the Karlsonator12 is tuned to 37Hz - I'm not sure how to raise tuning other than maybe making it a couple of inches shorter in height. XRK971 could look at ways to raise Fb in the Karlsonator so I'll ask. I think Karlsonator 8 is tuned to 42Hz, which would be reasonable for some 8 inch speakers
The little 0.62 scale K15 probably has tuning around 70 and is tuned by "ear" with Beta10cx. When I reduced the vent area below what is shown, the graph showed no improvement in the lows with that 10" coax, little change in the 100Hz-200Hz area on a graph - but subjectively, it lost all its punch. If it had a more lively 10cx then Beta10cx, then it would probably whip my horn on things like bowed and plucked bass. Sitting on the floor and near a back wall, Beta10cx is too strong in the 100-200Hz area with the 0.62 scale K15. I intend sometime to add a subwoofer.
If I cam feel better, I'll try to get on the ball a bit and do more measuring and subjective trials.
these are mine - one mini-K15 is loaded with FE206EN - I need to pull Beta10cx from the Karlsonator12 and try a different 12CX with more midrange sensitivity than Beta10cx. I have an old Beyma 12cx in a slit vent Karlson 12 and if can get the crossover decent, then that will sound pretty darn good and maybe better than the Eminence stuff although the 80oz magnet Eminence 12cx are pretty good. Even the 109oz magnet 12CX sounded good - but less sensitive as has more coil overhang and a 4 inch coil.
Baby K15 (0.62 scale for 10" or 8")
Karlsonator 8 plan - tuned about 42Hz - nice size
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