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In reviewing traditional box speakers placement, the listening position is measured to the front panel where the speakers mount. Eg.equilateral triangle.
Where to measure for edgarhorn that has the tweeter, mid horn and mid bass front staggered .....
To the Spyder and diaphram of Fostex t500mk.and jbl 2241 ?
They are physically verticall align currently at the throat of respective horn.
Tanks for advice
Follow Ups:
I place mine well away from side walls and toed-in just lightly so that they cross to an imaginary point far behind my head. Too much toe-in and reflected sound reachng your ears become inexistant, resulting in rock solid but unnaturally forceful sound. You need some air to breathe with horns! To me, the right degree of toe-in is the most important. Side wall reflections (my horns are 120degrees directivity) can be quite nasty as well. A half inch difference in depth position (one speaker relative to the other) is also very audible...
When a loudspeaker has directivity, it is also usually loudest directly on axis.
Horns normally have more directivity that direct radiators and so are in effect focusing the energy forward and not so much to the sides and rear. Ideally this is the same across the band but usually there is a significant change in pattern with frequency.
With horns in a stereo or in commercial sound where this principal is from, one can widen the sweet spot. If you have a couch, air the right speaker at the left seat and vis versa. This way the loudest part of the radiation is aimed at the farthest seat. Might take a little tinkering but this does work. Also from the center seat, use a tape measure and set the speakers the same or close to as the same distance from the listening position. Stereo image is partly time information and not skewing time by having significantly different distances to each source when at the center is not good, the mono phantom is what you get when what reaches both ears is identical in time and identical enough to fool you into perceiving a Center image instead of two sources. When a loudspeaker radiates "simply" enough, one can make a mono phantom so strong you don't notice there is a right and left source, something like with headphones except it's in front of you and not in your head.
Best,
Tom
I have done just that with my TH-50's and TD-1's.
I find that most people who hear it for the first time think my center TD-1 is on, so I have to unplug the Neutrik connector from it to convince them, otherwise they think I'm messing with them. LOL.
Hi Claude
It was the strength of the "mono phantom" and stereo image that convinced Professor Jones to join the company. He walked back and forth between the SH-50's i have and said "no this is impossible" and then said wow.
I wish my surround system had the option of having the surrounds on but just using the front two channels ans they produce a more convincing image than when adding the center channel.
Doug was the scientist who came up with the LEDR tests for stereo imaging, if interested try the link below.
Take care Claude.
Best,
Tom
In my temporary new digs, I'm using Six TD-1's in my upstairs system currently. I find that there is negligible difference between 6.1 and 7.1 for movies.
All 6 are turned sideways to get a 60x40 pattern from the horns, which was not the way they were intended for PA use, I know, but they work so well for Hi Fi. So I had to make wedges to make them work at zero angle for their respective elevations from the floor in this horizontal fashion.
The front 2 are angled inwards. Right channel aimed to Left arm of the couch, Left channel aimed towards the Right arm of the couch. The controlled directivity across the entire band is something that all of your designs have in common. This is a preferred characteristic as concluded by JBL listener tests, under Dr. Floyd Toole's leadership. The solid phantom image is a result of that directivity control as well as the phase coherence for a seamless integration of multiple drivers over a wide band.
A pair of SH-50's downstairs, in Stereo, sound fantastic on their own without subwoofers. They EXCEED you published specifications of a 50 Hz. cutoff by easily going down to 40 Hz. in a home environment (cabin gain?). I'm amazed so much well defined bass can come out of such a small horn.
Now the TD-1's upstairs are a bit thin on the bass, BUT, since HT requires subwoofers for the LFE channel, they also work great for concert Blue Rays in full surround, OR, simple 2 channel recordings in 2.2 mode. I can switch between the 2 modes at the touch of a button and any bass deficiency in those old boxes gets compensated by my Yamaha Pre-Pro's YPAO EQ and the front/rear tapped horn subwoofers. which are your present company's TH-50 Proto Serial #3 on rear center wall (2 more factory built TH-50's unused downstairs) and Josh Ricci's OThorn on the front center wall, serving double duty as a "speaker stand" for the Center/voice channel TD-1 used for Blue Ray's only (unused for 2 channel music).
Audio geek/engineer friends who have heard both systems with various 2 channel test recordings (mine and theirs) are simply blown away by the extreme DYNAMICS, imaging, and realism of the output. All have gone home with the upgrade bug after hearing these setups. I'm happy to live with these every day and with a Nelson Pass Aleph J clone for R and L channel duty, I'm no longer looking to upgrade anything as I sit in sonic Nirvana.
I've never (knowingly) heard actual Danley Unity speakers, but have build a number of waveguide designs based on the idea. It is true that they create a phantom center like nothing else I've ever heard. I agree with Tom, the few times I tried to add a center channel (driven by summed L+R, all I have) the result wasn't as good as the phantom. According to Toole and a number of others "virtually" wagging their finger at me on some audio sites, that can't be. But it is. I don't have a good explanation why, though. Perhaps playing more with spacing and distances could change that?
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Make easy high performance diffusors:-->http://www.libinst.com/diffusers/Depot_Diffuser.html
Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
SmallSyns:-->http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/292379-s
According to Richard C. Heyser, measurements are 1 or two dimensional, while LISTENING has many more dimensions.
Listening can be believed more times to tell the truth than be fooled.
hah, interesting
Throw away the tape measure.
I've had my Edgar's at various distances in different rooms and it was more or less equilateral within constraints. Currently, they're nearly in corners about 12' apart. What I find as important is toeing them in to a reasonable center point perhaps a bit beyond the listening position. I measure the toe in to make it's the same and I find the sweet spot is quite wide and imaging is deep and well positioned.
The room also doubles for HT and even way off axis, the imaging is pinpoint while using just the pair as a phantom center speaker.
-Rod
Rod
In previous home my best position was about 15 feet from mouth of midbass.
The speakers were about 9.5 apart. I am in a different house and if I were to do equilateral do I measure to the diaphram ot to the midbass mouth?.I plan to get to equilateral than move progressively away from speakers. Will have to get a buddy to help as I can't move much anymore....:( Thanks
As Tom so aptly put it, equilateral isn't as important as the equal distance to your ear and the toe in.
-Rod
Ah got it ,will experiment with those thoughts in mind.
Thanks gentleman for the responses.
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