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In Reply to: RE: Electro-Voice Regal lll posted by CraigI on January 10, 2017 at 15:28:12
Some other things I have been considering in this restoration is:
Cabinet sealing, bracing, damping, & stuffing. Re-wiring & terminals. This speaker has no sealer caulk, damping material or stuffing.
And what about the horn diaphragms? Do they slowly go bad or just go until they quit?
I am considering taking the crossover out of the can and mounting it on a board like Bob Crites does and I am leaning toward the Sonicaps that he uses.
I know this is Sacrilege to the purest. I am not dead set on doing this. My motivation was to add current knowledge & technique to maximize the original.
What are your opinions on these subjects?
Craig
Follow Ups:
Craig,My "opinions" regarding anything audio are based on working for three audio equipment companies and one speaker manufacturer. All well known, plus having the field as a hobby for over 50 years and having had and worked on more equipment and speakers than I care to list.
You bring up some valid issues but IMHO it's not worth the money or effort to do all those things with those speakers unless you just want to see for yourself what each "improvement" may or may not do. If you want to spring for those caps for peace of mind then go ahead. I'm just saying that I don't think you should go nuts with those speakers with a mind set that all those things will make them something are aren't.
When I saw the name Crites, the first thing that came to my mind was that he has a business selling parts and mods to people that aren't happy with their Klispch Speakers as they came from the factory. But being bigger more expensive speakers with some good bones to work with, it probably makes more sense to swap out parts to your liking than to buy new ones.
Many times people like something about a speaker but learn to hate something else about it and there you have it.But to address your list:
1.Anything electrical should require a mechanically strong, clean and well soldered or well fitting connection.
2.Cabinet leaks alter the low frequency response and overall function of the woofer to some degree depending on the woofer design. My Esquires don't have a gasket on the lip where the back panel rests but the backs fit snug and tight so I never went any further.
However, if your upgrades prove to be successful in bringing about a sound your more pleased with but the bass seems a bit flabby or off,that's the time to try better sealing. But the woofer, xover and cabinet size are what they are and they have limits.3. Damping on a horn may or may not be needed and you may or may not hear a difference. Depends more on the material the horn is made of and how it's mounted.
4.Stuffing changes how the woofer responds in the cabinet and at the very least there should be some sound absorbent material covering the back speaker panel to help cancel standing waves from the back of the woofer. Adding stuffing where there was none can change the sound depending on how much you add and it may sound better or worse to you.
5.Bracing will change the inherent resonace of the cabinet and that may or may not sound better even if in theory it's correct. When your marketing a $10,000 speaker you better mention bracing because it's expected but with a bookshelf speaker that's not an acoustic suspension design that's driven at high levels I don't put much importance into it as long as your working with a cabinet that isn't coming unglued at the seams and the back panel is tight.
6.Cap brands and types to me are like what flavor ice cream you like or how much you think you have to spend for a tire for your car. Crites deals with horns so maybe he found that the Sonicap flavor works well with horns. Others may tell you that horns need paper in oil caps.
As above, new expensive speakers sold to a niche market are expected to have caps that are perceived to be better or "auiophile" grade caps. That holds true with the electronics too.7. Not knowing what diaphrams are in the mid horns I can't say if they go slowly or all at once. If they are phenolic like the T35B I'd say that they either work or they don't. But the voice coil is attached to it so if the coil has some shorted windings it can change the impedance of the driver and can change the performance.
8. Your not working with a "Classic" that has a big resale value in original condition or with one of those outstanding Japanese reworks so making a new breaboard xover or "Bob Crites style" is fine. Just make darn sure you take pics of the connections or don't take the other xover a part and use that for your pattern of connections or you can blow the mid or tweeter with wrong connections.
Five other people can do what I just did and disagree with me on some or all of my opinions but that reflects how diverse opinions are on what you believe to be true and/or your own experience.
Edits: 01/11/17
I hooked-up the one speaker that is still intact to my RCA tube console and gave it a good listen. It does sound much better than when I had it hooked-up to the Marantz receiver in the office. Does it sound better than the RCA? As I said before, I like the sound of the RCA. The RCA is not your typical console with left and right channels in the same cabinet. It is not boomy like others I have heard from the 60's & 70's. It was one of the first (1958) if not the first to offer a stereo option. It could be purchased as a single mono/stereo unit with the option to add on a second speaker cabinet to allow it to do stereo.
The console is a little more open/airier in its sound. The EV is more powerful with punchier bass. The EV does have that box sound; the RCA less so. I do like the EV and I am more excited to complete the restoration.
I really appreciate your wisdom regarding the other upgrades I listed and I completely understand what you are saying about "it's not worth the money or effort to do all those things with those speakers unless you just want to see for yourself what each "improvement" may or may not do." As I said before this is my 1st DIY project. It's a learning experience for me and it's a hobby/project for me to do during the Minnesota winter. I have already refinished the cabinet and will replace the grill cloth and caps. I probably will add some foam liner and fill just to see what happens.
Thanks again to DaveV, Paul and all that have contributed.
Craig,What your saying doesn't really surprise me.
My Esquires sound better with a tube amp too and the debate continues as to why that is but I really never got involved with that because I've always preferred the sound with tubes so that's a useless debate for me to take part in or worry about.
I have two transistor amps, one 60 watts per channel and the other 200 watts per channel that only come out of the closet when I want reconfirm that I prefer tubes and so do the speakers I have.My Esquires sound "full" all the time like there's upper bass that never goes away. With real deep bass in the source they sound like they are going deeper than they really are and the effect is quite convincing.
I attribute that to the overall design and trying to get a reasonably full ranged speaker at a price point into a small sealed box.
The T35B Tweeter with the pot at full should pierce through all that and give some "sparkle" or a sense of air but the full sound is still there.
Maybe the new caps will change that?Without seeing the RCA speakers and how they are in their enclosures I can't comment on those other than to say that I'm not surprised that you say they sound somewhat more open or airy. But you'll probably find that the Regals are more capable of doing real deep bass better.
The renewed interest in the AR3A bookshelf speaker with a pair going for $1000 plus is an example of a speaker that I wouldn't call open or airy but it does deeper bass well and it has a sound that some may call linear because the bass, mid and treble blend well for a smooth sound without anything jumping out. You could also call the boring or un-involving.
There's a compromise in lots of speakers old and new and some companies pulled it off better than others. The Infinity Qb bookshelf speaker comes to mind from around 1978 that compromised the deeper bass while retaining a good bass presence that sounds clean and fast, the mids are open and clean and the highs come through with detail without harshness.
On another topic, but one that is directly related to how your speakers sound, if your Marantz and RCA still have all their original components they probably aren't doing what they could do.
In the Marantz at least the power supply caps would be suspect and in the tube RCA it would be power supply caps, the rectifier and related cap in the output tube bias supply if there is one, output tube coupling caps and the tubes themselves.So basically you want to have the amp provide the punch and available power it was meant to deliver and without the distortions due to parts that have passed their useful lifetime. In this case we are talking about electrolytic caps and output tube coupling caps ARE a candidate to change even if they are film and foil because if they fail your going to lose output tubes.
Edits: 01/12/17 01/12/17
DaveV,
The Marantz was purchased second hand and I wouldn't doubt it needs work. The RCA was professionally restored about a year ago. I pulled the tube pre/amp/tuner out of an old Magnavox console and have wanted to box it up like a receiver; another project. I'd like to learn how to work on these my self.
Do you know where I can get the cap holders & terminal block like Crites uses?
Craig,What he uses for the cap holder is really a cable tie with a mount. Some of those mounts are self adhesive and that's ok BUT you want ones with a hole in the center too so you can screw them down to make sure they stay down.
See the link below for great pics of them so you can see what they really are. They sell them too.Took me a while to find those suckers because I haven't ordered them in years and back in my day everybody knew them as tie wraps.
The connector is a common barrier strip and Mouser Electronics is one likely source. And there's Allied Electronics and tubesandmore.
I checked and Mouser has the ties too but I had to search for "cable tie locking" to come up with the right ones.
They have the mounts too as "cable tie mounts" but I hate their website sometimes and this is one of those times because it's so hard to keep scrolling to find what you want and the way they show them is confusing.
Edits: 01/12/17
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