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58.28.171.3
If you could get either the Tannoy LSU/HE/15/8 (used in home made cab, visbily good condition, unrestored one owner) or the new GPA 604-8H-II for the price of the GPA, which would you have and why?Assume you werent going to resell, so profit/investment is not a motive.
"Its better to have online friends than no friends at all."
Edits: 07/10/08Follow Ups:
Thanks for all the good responses. I took the plunge and ordered the GPA 604-8H-III today. The bad news is I wont be able to pick them up until second week in August when I get back to the states on a business trip to CA. But I will have OBs for them sorted by then though....
"Its better to have online friends than no friends at all."
Gortnipper,
I will post this at AudioCircle OB speakers too...
Did you receive your GPA 604 series III's? Can you post a picture of the driver? I want to see the horn....and if it is blue.
Chris
Not the horn at least. My biz trip was canceled at the last minute :- (
I should get them next week when my co-workers travel down here instead of me going there this week. :- |
I have seen BW pictures in a draft of the spec sheet (but was sworn to secrecy to not distribute) and they appear to be gray :-) I cant see why GPA would make them blue, that is just so ugly!
"Its better to have online friends than no friends at all."
Hello All,
I had occasion to listen to, and test the Tannoy Westminster Royal.
I found it had a warm sound in the bass-not boomy, and crisp clean bass transients. When the bass is this clear, you think there is no bass sometimes. The Tannoy goes flat to 50Hz.
Here are some of the tests I made in the gentleman's living room.
The ripples are less in the bass at the mouth of the horn. I will post them if you like.
if anyone has curves of a new 604 type driver, i would very much like to see them. I have seen the ones in the Altec 1971 monitor catalog on Lansing heritage. I scaled my curves a bit more coarse than the Altec page
I found the voice perfectly integrated, a trace of edginess- but not annoying. It is quite a nice speaker.
This fellow had the ultrasonic tweeters, which are past the limits of the mic used in this test.
I have 604's the last alnico units made with NOS cones, and I like the Tannoys better. You got to have the big basshorn though.
The Tannoy also has a time delay passive network..rare these days
The HF horn in 604's ( Mantaray included) is an unsolved solution. The Tannoys did a better job.
Best ......Bill ( that should be degrees, sigh)
Tannoy Westminster Royal
Hi All,
Here are pictures of the Tannoy I tested. I am not trying to say the Tannoy is better than everything, just that the Altec 604, has a poor horn design.
Due to this flaw, it will not sound as good as the Tannoy, in the voice range, due to poor integration.
I have wanted to rip out the horns in my 604's and replace them with a cut-down Potato Masher JBL lens--the short one.
Then put it in the big tannoy box, or the RCA rearload horn, and the clarity of the Altec HF driver would shine through. Someday.
I have not had time to finish the RCA rearload plans.
I have a fondness for the Masher, but it is not without flaw either.
I don't want to tread on anyones toes!
I have lost the name of the amp, it is made in Ottawa, Ontario Canada.
Bill
The 604 horn has a peak in it. Even filtered, the peak is there in time.
The Tannoy is very smooth in the voice-- very smooth.
I should have said poor integration relative to the Tannoy.
I just happened to be in a position where someone was kind enough to let me test the Tannoy's, so I thought I post the results.
However, I have never got past the peak in the 604. When you take a 802, and put it on a good horn, it is a very nice driver... no peak.
Everything I say is backed up by measurements.
The 604 is a fine driver, just don't get in a shoot out in the voice range against a Tannoy
On a scale of 1-10 the Altec is a 7.5. the Tannoy is 8.5 in my opinion.
Another point Tannoy drivers are expensive and hard to get. If you own an Alnico 604, think of what it would cost to make that driver today. They are a deal each time I go to sell mine, this fact makes me reconsider.
Enjoy your speaker, you could be stuck with a dome tweeter.
Best, Bill
hi Bill - did you test any of P-audio's 15" coaxials? 15CXHA is superficially like Eminence's old C15cX and both sport a `3"x6" horn which is rough graph-wise on my Eminence example. P-Audio's 15CXA/B have cone fed termination. I"m considering a P-Audio 15 coax if they meet spec and sound decent Best!ps - that Eminence 3"x6" horn (and P-Audio's copy) resembles EV's ancient CDP front horn
Just my opinion, but I still use ( a couple of years on) and enjoy the 15CXHB's. I think they sound "decent" :-)I'm not sure what you mean when you describe them as having "cone fed termination".
Their spec suits what you have previously said you like in a driver - very light cone for a 15, plenty of dynamics. However, being bass shy, they need some help on the low end to really rock out, IMO.
mms 71.44g
Fs 50Hz
Qts .23
VAS 135.08l
no 7.03 %As for ruggedness, I've accidently put my shoulder pretty heavily into a cone of one (no discernable damage), and I accidentally played some Einstürzende Neubauten at full output of a pro amp through one* for about 10 secs with no damage (the amp was a Yamaha, rated at 800watts into 4 ohms, which is somewhat more than the speaker's specced power capacity).
My set-up is:
coax crossed at 2K (2nd order)
helper 15" (SN 15B) crossed I forget exactly where (looking at the X-over I'm mildly surprised to see I've set it up as about 300Hz, 3rd order)
==> both in a sealed box....and sometimes I use an active sub rolled in very low.
I don't pad the HF - I chop down the low end of the HF horn's output with eq on the computer.
*through just the cone section, with no X-over.
is there any diff between HB and HA? - Fs and Vas are higher/lower than some speakers but should work well in a Karlson - CXA has Tannoy type feed versus the ~3"x6" horn. Have you ever tried putting a foam or felt ring behind the horn and over the outer spider (where a dustcap would normally be)? - that cleared up my C15CX somewhat and could be seen on graphsfwiw here's 15cxha's published specs - dunno how accurate ~same specs are given to the hornless model (15cxa)
Thiele-Small Parameters
Resonant Frequency (Fs) 39 Hz
Impedance (Re) 5.6 ohms
Mechanical Q (Qms) 6.45
Electrical Factor(Qes) .25
Total Q (Qts) .24
Comp. Equivelant Vol. (Vas)9.09 ft3 / 257.5 Liters
Voice Coil Overhang (Xmax) 2.75 mm
Surface Area of Cone (Sd) .083 m2
BL Factor (BL) 18.45 T-M
I don't have the HA graphs handy... the pdf I kept has just the CXHB and CXB info. Of the various P-audio's, the CXHB is the one I went for, cos the 3"x6" horn types seemed to give better HF response, and the CXHB's cone section had the "best" specs. From what I can see, all of their coaxes need bass support, so minor differences in their low-end extension are pretty irrelevant... therefore, I decided I may as well get the one that takes the light weight / big magnet thing the furtherest.
I've felted the backs of my horns. It's a nearly invisible tweak, and was easy to do, so it doesn't really matter that there was no noteworthy improvement.
I tried the ring idea ages ago, didn't notice any difference. It looked silly, so I got rid of it. The ring of material was pretty light, and level with the horn mouth (that is, quite far forward of the outer spider). Perhaps I should give other arrangements a try. How is yours set up? What type of listening material does the foam ring make the most noticable improvement on?
- had the foam ring right against the secondary spider - took out some harshness which I attributed to C15cx's horn (which I assume is just like P-audio's copy) - down side is I sometimes play dynamic things loud and even in a Karlson the ring would get kicked forwards - it won't hurt to try other than waste a few minutes which is nothing in this hobby - -stock vintage 604 look about as messy as the ring I used which IIRC was around 4" diameter - their felt ring may be part of their success (???)well this was messier looking - Eminence C15cx from the 1990's- btw - if your lowpass slope is steep the ring might not matter much
Cheers. At the moment I'm using a 1st-order lowpass, so it's worth a go. I'm waiting on 3 pro amps so I can permanently install an active (steeper slopes) X-over setup, but the supplier keeps pushing back the delivery date.
That Eminence speaker is visually very much like mine. I just found a post where you gave specs. They look similar, except the Q values. Since the P-audio has the lower Qts, I guess it would sound relatively thin if dropped into the exact same configuration as the Eminence.
Eminence on left, P-audio specs pulled from a pdf file on my 'puter:
05-RE OHMS 6.39 // 6.1ohm
13-FS HZ 56.80 // 50Hz
06-LE MH .85 // ?? Not stated
14-MMS GMS 53.10 // 71.44g inc airload (approx 58g without airload)
07-QM 9.76 // 4.99 Qms
15-CMS mm/N .1479 // ??
08-QE .400 // .24 Qes
16-RMS NS/M 1.9423 ??
09-QT .390 // .23 Qts
17-VAS LTRS 152.29 // 135.08litres
10-XMAX MM 2.90 // 2.5mm
18-SD SCM 856.34 // 830cm^2
11-BL TM 17.37 // 23.96
19-EBP 141.4 ??
12-EFF % 6.70 // 7.03
20-SPL dB 100.3 // 100dB
But.........
Here is the one to beat..
http://www.rcfaudio.com/vediMacro.phtml/sLang/EN/IDMacro/4373/menuAttivo/2293/m1/0/LowFrequencyNeoWoofersCX15N351/product.htm
I have only seen test curves- but this is the best horn co-ax I have seen.
It is going to be tough to beat.
I don't know the price or a dealer.
Save your pennies.
Plus, the ergonomic design is second to none..none, with RCF stuff.
Bill
looks like ~$600 hereBMS has heavier cone coax from $250-$350 - are those decent? Freddy
The BMS has a terrific woofer, but the HF driver is a bit edgy, and the horn is not as good.
But I am surprised at the BMS price, and it is a good deal.
B&C makes some nice ones too. The 8" B&C is used by Danley.
Bill
some folks have put K-tubes in coaxial - but a little tube won't support lower xover - would do 'ok' at 1K8
811 vs 5 cent 1" pipe K-tube in-room with old CD8 Eminence driver - sorry about thee scale discrepencies
I haven't knowingly heard a Tannoy or a vintage 604, but I have been living with the GPA 604 (and GPA xover) for a couple months and it does NOT have poor integration between the big woofer and the Mantaray horn. Actually, the two drivers have a seamless transition, at least to my ears, which I find hard to believe given the disparity in physical dimensions but that's what I hear.
Dave
Thank you! they are really quite something.
http://www.wyetechlabs.com/shared/aud-top.html
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/tannoy/cornetta.html
Yeah maybe Bill, but when you say it it has some credibility.
Except, the original poster is discussing purchasing a different Tannoy, a used 1960s pair of Monitor "GOLD" 15 inch drivers, which is certainly NOT what Bill is discussing and measuring.
Respectfully,
Jeff Medwin
15" dual concentric, not specified as a "gold" but it wouldn't seem likely to be much different.
Dave
I read that the Westminister use the 3839W 15" Dual Concentric.
"Its better to have online friends than no friends at all."
Not much information on any differences between it and a Monitor Gold.
Dave
below
"Its better to have online friends than no friends at all."
That goes a long way to answering that question, but at the same time it leaves a fair bit unanswered. I see that the principal differences between the Monitor Gold and 3839 are the surround material and magnet material. Sort of like the difference between a 604-8G and 604-8K (although I think they share the surround). The 3839 does appear to be a direct descendant with few fundamental changes relative to the Monitor Gold. Am I wrong about that?
Dave
But I am not even conversant on the subject, really. I am simply in the research phase.
"In 1974 a radical approach to surround design was taken and the cone structures of the 15" and 12" completely redesigned for the HPD Series."
and
"A major redesign of the Monitor Gold led to the 'Monitor High Performance Dual' HPD Series. Power handling was improved considerably by using high temperature adhesives in specially set up Tannoy coil winding and heat treatment sections. Sensitivity was maintained at 92 dB for 1 Watt at 1 meter while moving cone masses increased to give the correct 'Q' values for a range of 5 cabinet models....
All units were 8 ohms and also supplied with crossover and terminal panel as kits for the professional market or home constructor. The crossover network is worthy of mention as there were some sophisticated circuits used for controlling both the level of energy from the HF unit and the degree of roll-off above 5 kHz. An autotransformer was used to match the relatively high impedance of the HF voice coil (10 Ohms resistive, approximately 18 Ohms above 1 kHz)."
Both of these predate the 3839 by my read of this.
David
"Its better to have online friends than no friends at all."
never having heard the 15s.
But, being an engineer there are three fundamental reasons to change designs: 1) the desire for "new and improved"; 2) to actually improve; 3) to cost-down the current range.
All of may define a new and diffreent sound, but the will certainly be in the "house sound" I would guess.
David
"Its better to have online friends than no friends at all."
Just as there were changes to the surround, cone, horn and magnet on the 604 throughout the development of it's various versions. Each is different from the other, but not fundamentally so (with the biggest difference probably coming with the CD horn on K and later models).
Anyway, I don't think it's entirely wrong based on the described progression from Gold to 3938 to assume that their sound and performance are roughly similar if not exactly so, any more than it is to refer to "604's" as opposed to 604B, 604E, 604-8K etc.
Dave
Cool read, thanks.
Jeff Medwin
I went for the Altec 604 and the main reason is GPA. Peace of mind is not cheap in audio. It is very convenient and consoling in a way when you know if something crazy happens to your drivers, GPA is only a phone call away.
I do not have the GPA 604 instead I have the original Altec 604-8G. They sound very very good to me using SET amp. I am almost to a point where I can say to myself that this is the end line for me. Hard to believe, and I know there is no such thing in this hobby, but recalling that instance when I considered that I am done as I listen to my 604's was a very good feeling indeed.
I suggest to consider the GPA. Bill H. will take good care of you. I have dealt with him before. He is world class!
regards,
Abe
I tend to agree with doodle about servicing, etc. These are likely to be long term keepers.
I am leaning more and more towards the GPAs. If they are by and large the peer of the Tannoys - and they are brand new and under warranty - how can you go wrong?
Sure, you may not get a dinged up old cab or a set that may need reconing along with The Name. But, there is no such thing as a sure bet.
Money is often the bottom line, isnt it? 10% off here or there...
"Its better to have online friends than no friends at all."
get service and support for.
I had my 604s reconed at GPA a couple of years ago. Bill did a great job with them. If I was to start over, then, I'd go for a product made the samem way _and_ I can get factory support for them.
I've not had the pleasure of listening to the Tannoys but I know the 604s well and would be quite happy with them.
Cheers,
David
I wonder how long Bill will be around, and if there is anyone there to carry on after him. Not wishing ill upon the man, I'm just sayin'.
My non-analytic purely subjective view is as follows: I'm a huge fan of Altec & JBL speakers. GPA has carried forth the Altec banner in a way that would make the company proud. GPA is currently doing a re-cone on my 416-8A. When I begin my next speaker project using the 416's I'll buy from GPA a pair of 902 hi-freq drivers. My vote is to go with GPA. I don't see how you could be disappointed. Don
tho' there's not much in itIf anything, the Tannoys are more "beamy" than the Altecs, and while not the last word in either top or bottom end extension, the Tannoys make for hours of effortless listening and are subtle, efficient + tonally accurate
The Altecs have more of their own sonic signature, and have more forward a presentationI could live with either speaker happily; this is really like comparing a Jaguar with a Cadillac; both quite different, + both Superb!
Grins
Hi Grinagog,Have you ever actually owned Tannoy 15 inch Golds??
I have, for several years, they were my very first hi fi speaker purchase once I graduated college.
Sorry, but the Tannoys will not compare one iota to the performance of the latest GPA, which I have heard extensively at RMAF 2006 and 2007 at the Serious Stereo suite, in their MLTL enclosures Dennis engineered.
The worse part of the Tannoy Gold 15s was its low end and mid bass, which was "boomy" with every amp I tried on them, to a point where I sold the speakers.
With the GPA 15, you get the best sounding 15 inch bass unit made, (its the Altec 515's cousin), and, you get a MODERN alignment of the magnets and force fields, in line with the voice coils, (hence less distance displacement between the low and high voice coils). Also, the GPA has a modern fully developed crossover.
If you want to use a car analogy, the Tannoy Gold is the old style Morris Mini Minor, made in GB (yecch, vintage British cars) whereas the GPA 15 inch is like the new Ford GT-40, simply the BEST BUY in audio speakers today.
The GPAs take over 400 hours to break in. The GPA 15 is THE pinnacle of 604 design, make no mistake, it outperforms all the vintage models, every one of them.
Jeff Medwin
tho' my current speakers are 12" Tannoy Reds
Bass response is very much dependent on what cabinets the Tannoys are housed in, + not much different from any other speaker in that respect
I've also owned Silvers, Reds, Golds + HPD's from 10"-15" and a couple of local HiFi stores here have 604K setups ( and I've owned the vintage Altecs these are based on )
Very fine speakers; + all a matter of taste
Grins
When I sold Tannoy I always liked the Cheviot and Devon (both HPD315) better than the Arden and Berkley (HPD385). I thought the midrange much better on the former, and dark on the latter.
I take a Lotus over any Ford.Also, Bill is working on a new horn for the GPA 604. Check out the Altec forum. So, "THE" pinnacle 604 design will either be improved or replaced.
Big thanx for that. I think it would take such a redesign of the horn for me to cough up the ca$h for a pair of these, as it would prob address one of my main concerns WRT the design.
Cheers
It appears that the revised 604 is available now.
The Ford GT-40 is a British-made car. It's the product of British engineering.
What's wrong with Armstrong shocks and Lucas electrics, anyway?
I do have an old Norton, so I am well aware of the Prince of Darkness.
:-)
"Its better to have online friends than no friends at all."
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