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In Reply to: BD Design Oris 150 Speakers posted by DrM on April 04, 2001 at 21:40:06:
I for one wish there were lots more reviews and am saddened that reviewers are often made to regret that they bothered. Unless the review is totally jingoistic or idiotic (which they almost never are) I find it informative and enjoyable to read people's reviews. Why do you suppose people respond so aggressively to reviews?PS: thanks for the reveiw, dan
Follow Ups:
Hi,Why do people respond aggressively to reviews?
From my perspective as both a reviewer and 24-7 (okay 22-7) audio/music nut, it has to do with the fact that a positive review reaffirms one's choice in gear and makes you feel so "smart" because you think that it is good as well. If a "reviewer" trashes a piece of gear that you like or own, you feel as if you made a bad decision and nobody likes to be told that they are stupid, or that they wasted their money.
Why people make a "review" of something that they personally didn't even build a life-changing event, is beyond me.
It's a piece of metal (or wood) folks...not a life saving surgery or cure for cancer.
1. None of us hear exactly the same way or listen for the same things, so attacking someone because of what they truly hear/heard is a stupid waste of time.
2. Just because something costs $1.37, that doesn't make it bad and on the flip side, just because something costs $22,000, that doesn't make it good. Our expectation is that IT SHOULD be good for that amount of money, but that isn't always the case.
3. Pure jealousy. It's a fact of life that some people are jealous of others who can afford mucho-expensive gear and rather than aspire to work extra hard or change your way of life to save money for that piece of gear, it's easier to ridicule someone who can afford it.
The fact still remains that the high-end is an elitist club for boys with small tubes and we don't like outsiders or people who dare to try something new with technology. For people who claim to be interested in the enjoyment of high fidelity and the expansion of our musical and technical knowledge, we are about as close-minded as they come.
If it makes you enjoy music more than something else did before, then it can't be a bad thing.
Ian White
www.enjoythemusic.com
Hi Ian,I think there are several points however that you missed, which may explain why a particlar review gets criticised. Here in no particular arder are a few:
1. Because the review methodology is completely flawed (dealer's showroom, hi-fi show etc.)
2. Because the review reports on really poorly conducted comparisons, where the conclusions are in no way representative and fail to account for an unlimited number of variables variables (e.g heard component A in a friend's house and component B in my house)
3. Because the reviewer fails to account for the affects of unknown rooms, unknown equipment etc. yet confidently ascribes the entire sound produced to the 'single' component under evaluation/discussion.
4. Because the reviewer criticises a piece of equipment without having a clue how to set it up and optimise its performance properly.
5. Because the reviewer fails to optimise the installation and ensure that the characteristics he ascribes to a component are not influenced by some other, completely unrelated cause.
6. Because the reviewer takes obviously mismatched components for the evaluation
7. Because the reviewer has multiple agendas
A component can't sound better than it inherently is, but it can sound a whole lot worse through imperfect matching, installation, set-up, room, mains power etc. etc.
When someone ascribes a certain characteristic to component that the component either does not have or that can be obviated by proper set up, i.e through incompetence, he should expect to be criticised.
<
> Perhaps it has to do with a sense of fair play? Personally I don't find it fun to sit by and watch a wonderful sounding product built by highly skilful and caring people get trashed by some totally incompetent 'reviewer'.
Hi Steve,Yeah, I pretty much agree with all of what you've said.
From my perspective, and before I ever agree to take on a product for review I do the following:
1. Speak to the manufacturer to get a better feel for the product, the goal of the design, what it was designed with and what it is designed to work with.
2. I read other reviews of the product (if they exist) to see if the other reviewers made any set-up errors or used it in a system that is similar or totally different from mine.
I agree 100% that reviewers take on products that they have no business reviewing. In my case, I'd be somewhat hesitant to take on a pair of Avant-Gardes as I don't think they'd work well in my room. My equipment is certainly good enough, but I don't think I would be hearing them at their best to make a honest assessment.I recently turned down some rather large speakers (talking about really massive stuff over 5 feet) as I didn't feel that they'd work well on the bass side and my amps were not powerful enough.
It's not hard to be an honest reviewer, it just requires a lot of work and common sense.
My next piece coming in is the Emotive Audio Sira and I've reorganized my entire rack and system for it as it needs to be set-up properly.
The "gospel" thing bothers me, as I don't think our comments should be taken as anything more than a researched opinion. If you buy without trying and only based on what someone else told you, you are in a sad state.
Cheers,
Ian White
www.enjoythemusic.com
**My next piece coming in is the Emotive Audio Sira and I've reorganized my entire rack and system for it as it needs to be set-up properly.**Ian, I also have a Sira and am curious to know what setup requirements you were advised of in advance. I won’t try to color your impressions before you receive yours, but suffice it to say that even Romy’s semi-mystical rants on preamps and musicality in general will make perfect sense once you’ve heard it.
Careful. The Sira is something that deserves a fine reputation. Pegging something as 'The Preamp That Makes Romy Sound Lucid' might be a Kiss of Death! :-)Then again...an evil scheme comes to mind. That might just be the ideal selling point. So far, I have never seen a Sira up for sale used. Folks like me have had to 'settle' for Eratos while dreaming of Siras (the Erato is by no means a slouch, and shows that the Sira is no fluke)....
Hey Steve, ditto here.It's a very rare day indeed when a "reviewer" hears/perceives the same thing I'm going to hear/perceive in my room with my music making contraption. How could this ever be the same?
It's really hard to understand why anyone would get upset reading a review once this is understood. Some reviews get it right, but to whom? What's right for me certainly isn't right for everyone else.
Sure reviewers can really be "off base" but I think more of a problem is the deluded readers that take the review as gospel.
Cheers,
Mike
and that's what you mean by the term 'reviewer'.If you're referring to an individual who understands the intricacies of evaluating and comparing hi-fi components and does his/her best to isolate and describe the component in question accurately then I agree completely with what you say. Whether I agree or disagree with such a reviewer's findings is irrelevant. As long as the evaluation process was sound, there's not a lot to say.
I read Ken Kessler or Martin Colloms with interest but neither gentleman would persuade me to buy a Krell amp or Wilson speakers. I'm sure both are great products, but my tastes lie elsewhere.
However if you're talking about some knuckledragger who walks into a hi-fi emporium or travels to a high-end show and on that basis logs on to Audio Asylum to write a critical review, I don't think its the reader one should describe as deluded. Similarly, 'reviewers' who compare 2 components with one another without ever having had them both in the same building clearly don't understand the infinite number of variables that can effect how hi-fi sounds.
The issue isn't the opinion itself, rather the methodology employed to reach it.
Yours Mike is a very mature and confident approach, shared by very few people purchasing hi-fi equipment. Most depend on what they read for at least some guidance and pre-selection.
Its a shame and basically unfair when an excellent product is publicly criticised based on totally inept reviewing techniques.
"I'm-a-super-audio-genius-and-you're-not-so-I'm-going-to-trash-your-review" attitude that is all-too-common here at AA. On the whole, inmates with deep knowledge are very generous about sharing their experience with others, but when somebody without credentials writes a review some people seem to pop out of the woodwork and trash him/her. Your post seems to suggest that only Stereophile-quality reviews are welcome here, requiring perfect identical conditions and 20 years pro audio experience. IMHO that's what Stereophile is for. I love AA reviews because I like to get the "man on the street"'s impressions of a piece of gear. Sometimes the man is Sam Tellig and sometimes he's a rank newbie. Sometimes the conditions were a 30-minute dealer audition and sometimes a perfect scientific-quality comparison at home for a month. AFAIC, as long as the reviewer is clear about the conditions under which the review was conducted and is sincere and straightforward about what he heard (and has no hidden agenda, of course), then I am grateful for his information and will take responsibility for inferring the weight of his comments based on the conditions and his/her experience level. Reviewers will hopefully get better with each review and should be encouraged and guided, not trashed, unless they deliberately attempt to deceive or flame.More reviews at AA! If you don't like 'em, then don't read 'em!
to describe a person who, through ignorance, publicly yet incorrectly assigns faults to an excellent design, potentially damaging its reputation and thereby its sales potential.Let's put the shoe on the other foot.
Explain to me why you feel it helps audiophiles and the industry in general to have components incorrectly criticised purely because the 'reviewer' lacks the experience to differentiate HW design issues from the myriad of other problems that can affect hi-fi replay?
Here is a list of issues that would be impossible to differentiate from component performance in anything but the most controlled evaluations:
1. Poor system ground
2. RFI and EMI
3. Distorted mains
4. Room problems
5. Feedback and vibration problems
6. System matching issues
7. Room deficiencies
8. Polarity mismatches
9. Less than pristine contactsNo reviewer can honestly and correctly criticise a product's performance until he/she is sure that the cause of the problem or shortcoming mentioned does not instead belong to the list above.
***Sometimes the conditions were a 30-minute dealer audition***That's not a review, that's an impression of a dealer setup.
***a perfect scientific-quality comparison at home for a month***
No perfect review has ever been written, nor will it ever be.
Hi Steve,
My buddy has bought the PM4AER Oris horns - he liked them so much. We'll be doing an audition in his house pretty soon with those horns, and compare them to the Duo. Do you have any suggestions on how best to conduct this review? Especially regarding the Duo setup, I'm sure you can give us some good advice.Don't take any hidden meanings from this. Unlike your above comments, I'm not interested in inserting innuendos, and implications here. We are going to do an honest review, as we did before, and post the results regardless of the outcome.
Dan
Firstly let me say that Rich, in his usual super-concise style has hit all the major points.All I can do is to indulge my verbosity by waxing lyrical on reviews in general.
There are 4 reasons to evaluate a loudspeaker, which will dictate how the testing is conducted. Before you start, its important to be clear on why you are proceeding.
The reasons are:
1. To find THE loudspeaker which you would like to build your system around
2. To find THE loudspeaker to best complement an existing system
3. Because you get paid to test loudspeakers
4. Because you have another agendaEach reason above dictates a different approach.
1. Selecting THE loudspeaker as a basis for a new system:
Assuming that you've whittled your choice down to a couple of models, each model must now be tested in your listening environment with a variety of different amps and anxilliaries and in a number of different set-ups. The evaluation should define which speaker best meets your requirements and gives a good clue to the most suitable matching components.
In this evaluation its almost inevitable that you'll end up comparing the speakers with different amps and cables and have them positioned differently in the room.To use a boozy parallel, you're trying to select whether you prefer a gin or whisky cocktail by mixing the complementary ingredients and tasting the finished drink
2. Selecting THE loudspeaker as complement to existing systemAgain lets assume you're down to a couple of candidates, you'll be trying each speaker with different room and listening positions, trying different cables and tuning your existing system to get the most from the speakers. The new speakers may reveal problems in the system that you've never heard before so its important not to assume that the problem lies with the speaker. When comparing the 2 speakers, each should be in its ideal position, cabled up with the most complementary wire, levels matched. The reviewer should attempt to minimize any anomalies and achieve the optimum situation for both speakers.
Here you're trying to evaluate which brand of gin to use in your favorite cocktail.
3. Testing loudspeakers professionally
Is a superset of 1 above, with the addition of a well characterized listening environment and well characterized anxilliaries. Here the reviewer is evaluating and reporting on a single cocktail ingredient
4. ...........(fill in the blanks).............
Save yourself the bother of a comparison and move straight to writing the results while sipping the cocktail.
DUO Set-up
You never mentioned which version of the DUO your Buddy uses. Assuming its a DUO II (otherwise why bother publishing reviews?) there are several set up steps to bear in mind.
- Subwoofer settings will make or break the performance. Male vocal is a great way to evaluate whether you are close or spot on the ideal.
- Subwoofer should be positioned to excite room nodes as evenly as possible.
- You should allow at least 2 feet between the sidewalls and horns
- Ensure that the tweeter horn has plenty of free air around it.
- The toe-in and distance between the speaker and listener are important set-up elements to optimize musical energy, image specificity and size and soundstage width and depth
- Diffuse backwall reflections if possible
- Get the tweeter as close to ear level as possible
- If you can lay your hands on a 1/3 octave spectrum analyzer it is an exceptionally good tool to check your set-up for unevenly balanced balanced room nodes, comb filtering etc.
Rich and most others here prefer their DUOs with SET amps. I prefer a more powerful PP presentation with oodles of headroom. SETS do sound wonderful but the mere fact of being a SET is not an automatic guarantee of excellence.
Implications and innuendoes? None intended Dan. My post was intended to be clear and unambiguous.
Hope the above helps
Hi Steve,
OK, sorry then. It seemed like you where directing that post to me - my mistake :)The two speakers will be around, I guess we'll just listen to them, using the Duo bass for both (different crossover points though). He's got the Duo II. It will be fun to hear these two world class speakers in the same room, with the same setup.
Dan
all the possibilities for the best sound with both products (Duo crossover and subwoofer volume settings, placement - front to back and along different walls and in different rooms, cables, amps, preamps, sources, etc.). You also need to make sure that the volume levels are matched exactly. Finally, note all the caveats (there will still be a ton of them).Given the above, and the likely reception you'll get, why bother?
Thanks Rich. Why do it? I know the likely reactions - thats OK. If we don't do comparisons and review, why bother talking about this stuff at all? I bought the Oris because of the reviews I read. I don't know anybody nearby with one. Some people would say this is stupid, thats fine, I took a risk, and it paid off enormously. I figured that if it didn't work out, then I could use the driver for a traditional Lowther box, or sell the lot at some loss.I think these type of reviews are helpful. If somebody says "Uhh, I heard the Oris/Duo/etc at a show, and it sukked", OK, thats a data point, but one I take with a grain of salt.
But if a lot of people, are all saying "Gee, the sky is blue", well then, that means something too. Doesn't mean the sky is blue for blind people, but probably I can believe it.
I got off my butt and auditioned Maggies, based on the rave reviews. After I heard them, I bought them. Eventually I sold them, not because they were terrible, but they just didn't work for me (too big, required too much power). But it was something that took a month or two, in my house, before I could discover that. I knew the size and power requirements beforehand, and took a chance that it would work out for me. It was a worthwhile decision, I learned a lot.
Dan
that for a variety of reasons I cannot get to sound nearly as well in my current home as they did in my previous one. I'm using them now for video. LOL.Don't let me dissuade you if you're interested in doing the work. I'm interested in what you have to say...I've been considering a second horn system.
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