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In Reply to: RE: We must hear things differently :) posted by E-Stat on April 13, 2017 at 08:40:07
Well, we are off topic. I once did agree. But, I have found electrostat hybrids to have improved over the years. And, they definitely overcome many weakness of full range dipoles, such as dynamics, efficiency and dipole bass cancellation. I previously owned Martin CLS full range 'stat dipoles and even with subwoofers below 100Hz, they always had an artificial thinness in the mid/upper bass that was incurable.
Maybe I have grown accustomed to it, but I do not hear the discontinuity to which you refer, even in comparison to other purely dynamic speakers. Yes, the CLSs were wonderfully coherent in their range. But, I sensed no loss of that when I upgraded to my current aged ML Prodigys some time ago.
Perhaps also the time correction effect of the Dirac room EQ I use now plays a role. Also, it has been my experience that many criticisms of woofers and subwoofers, like "slowness", etc., really have to do with room modal effects introducing uneven frequency response, boominess and overhang.
I do not think we can directly hear dispersion patterns, but we hear only the diffuse effects of dispersion quite indirectly via the complex room reflections they induce.
Well, we are off topic.
It's certainly on topic for me regarding the assertion I quoted ("one can always assemble a better sounding Mch system than a stereo."). Always? I find that a great system always begins with speakers that achieve a certain level of performance. Indeed the CLS suffered from limited panel area. Even the larger CLX has but half the area of mine.
I find that 600 watts of tube power provides sufficient dynamic output. I get measurably flat response to 30 hz in my room (pic in gallery) which works fine for my needs. That was achieved with careful placement and a small forest of bass traps.
I do not think we can directly hear dispersion patterns
Perhaps I am just hyper sensitive to coherency as I definitely do. A piano, for example, should radiate sound as if it is a single instrument. I was never a fan of early JBL speakers because they operated the midrange driver a good octave too high for consistent directivity and possessed a "fun house mirror" sort of image perspective from a frequency standpoint. Delivering consistent directivity has been a design consideration for many speaker manufacturers as of late. Even with sound reinforcement companies like Danley Sound Labs .
All I'm saying is your "always" is apparently not shared by many other inmates given the limited responses to this thread.
To each his own. :)
My opinion about building an optimum system for a given price does depend on one's sonic priorities and other factors. My opinion was, as you can see, also qualified by a minimum price. You cannot do it for a few thousand bucks.
We may disagree, but I think sonic differences as a function of price have steadily declined, meaning diminishing performance returns with price are even more significant than they once were. That goes for speakers, too, in my experience. Note that I did not say everything sounds alike, no matter what you spend. I am saying, above a certain price point, spending a whole lot more does not buy you as much incremental performance boost as it once did.
I also believe I could assemble a better sounding system than my current one at a lower price than I paid if I had to redo it over today, even disregarding inflation. But, given the mostly unrecoverable sunk cost I have in my current one, that is not likely to happen.
I respect and admire your Sound Labs speakers. I have heard them a number of times, including at the home of a recording engineer friend in a thoroughly treated room. That was a 5.0 configuration driven by a Meitner DAC in pure DSD mode. The sound was really outstandingly good, but the deep bass was just not there driven by 5 Parasound JC-1 monoblocks, and what was there was still quite ragged and dynamically limited. I felt no need to imitate his configuration. Mine more than held its own against that, as have other Mch systems I have heard.
I agree about issues of coherence. They can be caused by a lot of things. But, I do not think dispersion is one of them, since we cannot hear dispersion unless we have many more ears than two pointing at many more angles. But, specifically, coherence between dipoles and dynamic woofers or subwoofers in hybrid configuration is important. But, it is likely more a matter of crossover implementation and control of bass room interactions. That has improved substantially in the past decade or so.
My opinion was, as you can see, also qualified by a minimum price. You cannot do it for a few thousand bucks.
Understood. You'll find I have several components in the main system which meet your minimum alone. I think you'll find a number of exceptional two channel systems found here like that of inmate Mike Lavigne's that also meet your requirements.
Harry Pearson was a dear friend and mentor for over thirty years. He certainly believed in the value of MC and Telarc released a sampler of his favorite cuts called "The Absolute Sound SACD Sampler". In the liner notes, he describes in detail why he chose each track. He gave me a copy in 2006 and provided a personalized overview of his thoughts while listening during one visit. And while he had a wonderful MC system (cabling alone was ~$30,000), he always returned to what I also found to deliver a more realistic sound overall with the spectacular two channel systems in Room 3.
I respect and admire your Sound Labs speakers. I have heard them a number of times, including at the home of a recording engineer friend in a thoroughly treated room. That was a 5.0 configuration driven by a Meitner DAC in pure DSD mode.
Wow, five U-1PXes would run $135k by themselves. Deep bass not there? Something was wrong.
But, I do not think dispersion is one of them, since we cannot hear dispersion unless we have many more ears than two pointing at many more angles.
I continue to disagree. I think trained listeners can tell when a wavefront's shape is frequency dependent and demonstrates different amounts of indirect radiation - at least if their head is not locked in a vise. What I like most about my arrangement is that the soundfield changes very little whether you sit down, stand up, are close to the speaker, further back, in front or directly behind the speakers. That's the kind of coherency I sense with live, unamplified music. Like regularly hearing wifey play her baby grand in the living room.
I think our exchange is simply another example of how different our listening priorities are. Why some folks prefer box speakers vs horns or planars. Tube vs SS. And so on. I guess I also differ greatly on a comment found in your profile:
"I almost never listen in stereo anymore."
I simply cannot imagine limiting my musical tastes so profoundly. I presume you refer to true MC recordings and not "artificially processed" results like Bigguy.
edits: math problem and lack of highlighting!
Yes, I also met Harry and visited Sea Cliff several times. I did not get to hear his experiments with Mch. He did come to prefer Mch as it gained momentum post 2000. He had his brilliant audio insights from time to time, but I think he was technically illiterate, much too cozy with the industry, and fundamentally much too full of himself and his own BS. I think he greatly helped growth and profitability of the high end industry, but he did that by planting so much utter nonsense in audiophile brains. Sorry to step on your toes again, but that is how I see it. I was really much more of a Gordon Holt or Peter Aczel guy back in the day, but nobody is perfect.
Yes, we disagree about the ability to hear speaker dispersion directly. But, if you believe you can, more power to you.
Saying I almost never listen to stereo anymore is not really true. Sorry. I actually spend most all day every day listening to FM radio around the house and in my car. It is when I plop down in my music room for a few hours to do serious listening that I almost never listen in stereo anymore. I have thousands of discretely recorded hi rez Mch classical albums on my NAS from which to choose. And, yes, I do not listen to synthesized Mch, just discretely recorded.
Yes, I also met Harry and visited Sea Cliff several times. I did not get to hear his experiments with Mch.
That's a shame. It was in Room 1 at the front of the house. You are likely aware he was also a video buff and used it as HT as well using a Runco projector and huge screen. Front end used EMM Labs separates through a Conrad-Johnson MET1 with Edge G AV amp driving Magneplanar 20.1s, dual CCR centers and 1.6s with five Nola Thunderbolt subs. Naturally, Nordost Valhalla cabling was used throughout. :)
...but he did that by planting so much utter nonsense in audiophile brains. Sorry to step on your toes again, but that is how I see it.
No problemo. HP could indeed be HP but overall his knowledge of music and ability to discern audible differences was incredible. His close friend Dr. Cooledge, another valuable mentor who introduced me to him was aware of that as well. Technical knowledge really wasn't required as he had a guy to take care of that stuff. During my visits, I would sometimes check tube bias and adjust if necessary. Which could be time consuming when he used the VTL Wotans! I didn't share the same set of priorities with him either. He tended to listen at higher levels than I find comfortable and usually had the bass towers cranked a bit.
edit: The first time I visited was 1980 when he was running the IRS in Room 2. While the big Infinity speakers were incredible in many ways, the bass towers sounded like they belonged to a different system. When he moved to the big Nola Exotica Grand Reference, things improved to these ears. But there was still a sense of listening to The Bass and The Rest of the Range. The Scaenas were the most coherent of the ones he used since the entire speaker operated as a monopole. The "depth charge" subs rarely spoke until the content required it.
But, if you believe you can, more power to you.
For me, it has never really been a deliberate "choice". Like those who possess perfect pitch (for which I am not), the ability can be both a blessing and a curse. Once I became aware of this kind of discontinuity as a teenager, I can no longer ignore it. Here is an example:
A few years back, business took me to the Cleveland area where an inmate that hangs out at Vintage lives. He extended an invitation to his condo and we spent a delightful evening well into the wee hours. As an engineer himself, he does lots of DIY and measures most everything. He had a really tweaked set of Advents and JBL L110s. We first listened to the Advents which are quite familiar to me as that was my first serious speaker and I still have modified pair to this day. Then we switched over to the L110s (the neutral brother to the Centuries). At once, the top end was more extended and tonal balance nore neutral through the midrange. What I couldn't ignore, however, was the fun house mirror effect due to inconsistent directivity. The midrange was driven an octave too high such that the upper midrange/lower highs shrunk dimensionally only to transition immediately to a wide dispersion tweeter sitting right in the middle of its optimum range. At first he didn't notice the difference until I explained the phenomena.
It is when I plop down in my music room for a few hours to do serious listening that I almost never listen in stereo anymore.
To each his own. I love classical, but some of my favorites were recorded long before MC. I also enjoy a range of other genres, too
And, yes, I do not listen to synthesized Mch, just discretely recorded.
Artificially generated *ambience* and other *effects* sound, well - artificial to me as well. I'm glad we agree on something. :)
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