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I attended the California Audio Show in the Bay Area over the weekend. I t was definitely disappointing compared to last year with respect to sound quality. But there were a couple of tidbits for SACD/DSD users. Blue Coast Records was heavily demonstrating DSD live recordings where they would record a soloist guitar player/vocalist and then playback the DSD files through the top line Sony speakers. We are not talking real demanding or wide range music. It was impressive nonetheless.
Some of you ole timers to the forum may remember Dr. Andrew Demery of the SACD Project who worked for Sony at the time of the SACD launch. Dr. Demery participated in some of these recordings but I was not around for those and did not see Dr. Demery.
It was during that Blue Coast demonstration that I confirmed once and for all that the Sony 5400 was, indeed, back in full production. The Sony rep said that the decision to restart production was due in good part to the great feedback that resulted from the Cal Audio Show last year. I specifically asked if there were any improvements or modifications to the previous run and he said there were none.
Regarding rooms that sounded good or great Tannoy, Sony, Audio Note were noteworthy. The new Magico 5 (the lower line $28,000 model, albeit part of a $400,000 system) sounded average on opening day but sounded pretty good the last time I heard them on Sunday, everything being the same but the source discs or files (btw the playback of digital files may have surpassed vinyl and discs at the show. But that’s just a guess).
The real show stopper of the show was the big mbl (not the $250,000 Extreme which was there in spirit only). The mbl is an enigma to me. I have heard it 6 or 7 times in recent years and it has never sounded bad, in fact, it has always sounded very good, but not necessarily “memorable”. Well, I tell you, on Sunday on one disc in particular in almost sounded perfect. It was awesome. The disc in question was Hugh Masekala’s “Hope”, which was a mind blower. There was a lot that was that was impressive including the ability to play “Hope” at concert like levels (which in this case really draws out the fidelity and realism). That same disc played at less than concert levels can have dramatically less impact. But the discs I heard on Friday at the mbl demo, as well as the discs I heard immediately before and following “Hope” on Sunday sounded merely “good to very good”; nothing to write home about or warrant a speaker change. That has been my listening experience with the mbl.
So, Chris (who I had the distinct pleasure of meeting up with on Sunday) and I will flesh out the mbl once and for all. There is an mbl dealership in Walnut Creek and we are going to arrange a meaningful demo where we will *really* put the mbl through it paces with music we know. And to boot I have ordered the “Hope” SACD.
Finally, I sat in on the Wilson demo (with the big Alexandria’s) on Friday, and again with Chris on Sunday. I won’t give it a rating, because honestly the times I sat in they clearly weren’t playing show stopping source material, at least when I was there. In fact, on both days they were playing “vintage” type recordings. So, while the demonstration did not sound “great” I have heard that system sound stellar (but not as good as I heard the mbl sound on “Hope”).
Robert C. Lang
Follow Ups:
The OP in that thread thought that the mbl room had the worst sound of the show! I'm with you though in your "Hope" estimation - for me, the mbl room had the best sound from what I heard on two different days. (And this is the second year in a row that I'd say mbl was tops at the show. I heard both their "entry level" Corona line and the higher end system they were mostly demonstrating.)
I also liked the Magico set up you refer to. And even though I'm not a vinyl fan at all, that Kronos turntable, with the stacked platters rotating in opposite directions was wild (although I was glad when the showroom guy switched to the Nojima Reference Recording of the Paganini-Liszt "La Campanella" Etude - on a lowly "plain old CD", no less!).
I agree with you about the Wilson room - especially on Sunday, it seemed they were just not necessarily demo'ing the best material when we were there (the Curzon/Solti recording of the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1???). The winds just didn't seem to have the body they have now on a lot of modern recordings. (The previous day, they had a vinyl version of MTT's Mahler Eighth - it was pretty good, but I liked the mbl and Magico rooms better. Not a slam against Wilson, just the circumstances of when I happened to be there and what they were playing at the time, where I was sitting, and all sorts of other variables.)
I'm not jumping into that discussion!
I do want to have a meaningful demo with the mbl. To me it's sounds good to excellent when ever I have heard them over the last few years, but never always excellent. I have some stuff I want throw at it, as I'm sure you do, too. When I heard them in Walnut Creek they sounded good but not great, although the owners had to figure out a set up issue (probably a phase issue) that I pointed out to them.
Robert C. Lang
they sound very much better against all expectation for an omni type speaker.
the electronics play a part too.
i have a friend who switched from an all mbl top-of-the-line system to a motley crew of something from different brands just because he wasn't getting served anymore (nothing else higher up to upgrade to...!) driving the giant YG speakers. But I thought it went downhill from then.
P.S. ask the MBL dealers to play you music at bedtime levels, and see if they still float your boat.
You are right the mbl warrants an extended listen or two, to flesh out strengths and weaknesses. As I mentioned, last Sunday on one track in particular the mbl sounded as good, probably better than any speaker I have heard in a 5 minute stretch. But that really does not mean that much because other times in other venues and even in the *same* venue the mbl has fallen far short of that fidelity level. (This is not just true of the mbl). While it shows what the mbl is capable of it might not fulfill that potential across the music spectrum. We have all seen that in demos where the demonstrator knows exactly what source disc and at what loudness level (critical) to bring a speaker/system to its pinnacle. And, in fact, even in our own systems we come across, sometimes strictly by accident, a music piece that bring out an amazing strength (or weakness?) that we never knew the system was capable of even if we have lived with that system for several years.
****ask the MBL dealers to play you music at bedtime levels, and see if they still float your boat***If you play classical music that has both very loud as well as extended and remarkable quiet (as low as the system/room allows) passages would that not serve the same "test"?
I do understand that some audiophiles view the ability of a speaker to play well softly or at low levels to be a hallmark attribute. I'm not one of those as I rarely play my music that low except when low level volumes are part of the composition which is practically most every classical music piece I listen to. If the speaker did not resolve well or otherwise did not sound excellent at low levels I would know during the normal course of listening.
P.S. I'm just reminded of a time I was auditioning several line stages in my system, each for a few days. I had narrowed it down to between two. But then in the normal course of listening I played a pipe organ disc. The disc was not intended to be a "test", but it caused one of the line stages to completely flunk out. It simply would not fully pass through the lower octave. Otherwise, it performed exemplary.
Robert C. Lang
Edits: 08/08/12
"I do understand that some audiophiles view the ability of a speaker to play well softly or at low levels to be a hallmark attribute"
It is a great attribute that most systems are not capable of.
I certainly can listen for hours at low level and enjoy the music,
but as you said some music need to be turned up to enjoy fully.
But at the end of the day I tend to run away from loud music, even live,
for me most audio demos are too loud
***It (playing well at low levels) is a great attribute that most systems are not capable of.****
I'm sure this makes sense. But to be to be sure that I am following along I'll ask you the same question that I asked Jerome.
*****If you play classical music that has both very loud as well as extended and remarkable quiet (as low as the system/room allows) passages would that not serve as the same "test"?****
That is, by definition if a system plays classical music well it must play softly well. Right? In fact, playing softly extremely well is a fundamental attribute. This is why it would never occur to me to "test" a speaker on its ability to play at low levels....it's implicit. At least that's how I look at it.
Robert C. Lang
Well I imagine that it would be impossible to test speakers at low level at a show where the background noise is too high. At the shop where I work part time we have 1 listening room that is extremely quiet and there is is possible. I tend to adjust the volume level depending on the background noise, late at night when the background sound level is low (well below 40 db)and not to disturb my wife that maybe sleeping I play music at very low levels and I am fully able to enjoy the system.
But I think that Jerome question is valid, some systems don't do well at low level, and I personally could not have such system as it would not meet my needs. As you said many times it is best to test a speaker in your own room.
Agreed. A system's (including speakers) ability to play softly, loudly, and at all levels in between are all equally indispensable.
Robert C. Lang
late at night, when their wives are asleep. Does anyone here actually Sleep with their Wives?! ( You know, sleep, not (wink, wink, nudge, nudge , Sleep! ) I know, shocking, radical...
Personally, I like listening in the morning.
this is a typical observation from MBL speakers users:
"...I have noticed that when playing a cd, say Patty Austin, when the preamp is set to like 10 level, quiet listening level, it sounds fine, but not dynamic or special. When the volume is at a threshold level, like 20--still not super loud---the magic is there. More dynamic and clearer sounding. A very knowledgable friend believes the drivers need a certain level volume so the drivers are appropriately "driven" . Not trying to sound like a reviewer, but it makes sense. That's what I notice...."
we may need an extended quiet passage in a recording to start spoting the alleged deficiencies. but, the danger is, when one is critically listening, there is every tendancy the senses are heightened, leading to unintended spotlighting of any pre-conceived bias and prejudices.
According to stereophile:
"....In the rear portion of this suite (which sounded anything but), in the same acoustically impossible, hollow air-walled and heavily curtained space that sank an extremely expensive Magico/Constellation set-up last year, Yuki Sugiara, Sony Senior Production Manager, had thrown all caution to the winds in a valiant attempt to debut the new SonySS-AR2 loudspeaker ($20,000/pair). This is the same loudspeaker that he recently set up for review in John Atkinson's house...."
"...Paired with Luxman's D-08 SACD player ($17,000), B-1000f monoblocks ($55,000/pair), C-1000f preamp ($33,000), and E-1 phono preamp ($4000); a MyTek Stereo 192 DSD DAC ($1600); Kimber Kable (including the KS-3033 speaker cable $6895/pair); Monaco Grand Prix Rack ($3625); and a ton of room treatment, the system threw a low-perspective soundstage that sounded best in the midrange. The top was quite rolled off and flat sounding, and the bottom less than immaculately controlled. Given the room, it's amazing that anything succeeded at all. I have no idea what these speakers and this system are actually capable of creating...."
I don't know what to make of stereophile's comment. Are they saying its bad, or what?
Besides, they got yuki's name wrong again.
It's Motoyuki Sugiura
****Given the room, it's amazing that anything succeeded at all. I have no idea what these speakers and this system are actually capable of creating...."****It looks like "Stereophile" was lambasting the room. It seems that in order to get an idea of what the speaker is capable of the "Stereophile" writer should probably read the "Stereophile" (Atkinson) review of the Sony SS-AR1 loudspeaker. I have heard it a couple of times and it sounds in commensurate, at least, to it asking price. I have not heard the Sony SS-AR2 which looks like a smaller version of the Sony SS-AR1.
Robert C. Lang
Edits: 08/07/12
They will have to drug me or tie me down to listen to "Hope"
Good news about the 5400. They appeared to have 4 of the units in that room connected to headphones, and I wondered how they got them, and why they were displaying them. So thanks for enquiring.
I did not attend the MBL demo, having seen/heard them a few times - I ran out of time. Even though it's a small show, I sometimes don't get to everything - I like to give the rooms I go to 20 to 30 minutes.
There were quite a few rooms I enjoyed - the Magico room Robert refers to above (wonderful on "Moondance" on the Kronos turntable); the little Magicos with Constellation electronics surprised and thrilled; the narrow Brodmann speakers with Electrocompaniet gear had some magic; the Tone of Music room with the Simon Yorke 'table, CAT pre, Luxman power amp and Franco Serbelin speakers; the Musical Surroundings room with Aesthetix gear and Vivid Giya G2s (a lot of thumping from the Legacy next door was annoying); the huge Wilsons in a ballroom-sized space on some of Peter McGrath's recordings.
But for me, the two rooms I enjoyed the most were the Tape Project room and the Loggie room.
In the Bob Hodas/Tape Project room, we heard the magnificent Focal Scala Utopia mounted quite high on custom Sound Anchor stands. Amplification was Luke Manley's VTL preamp and two MB 450 Series III power amps, with massive Tara Labs speaker cables to the Utopias. The tape recorder was an Otari with Bottlehead custom electronics. We were in a small room but the sound was magnificent especially on the Rimsky-Korsakov.
But what really knocked me out was the Patricia Barber "You and the Night and the Music" cut that had superb vocal presence, wonderful bass lines, precise placement of the wood blocks and other percussion, and the "distorted" guitar solo at the end was just fabulous. Each instrument had its full dynamics preserved and analogue tape combined the ease of LP but with the low noise floor of digital. Just stunning.
The Loggie room was just a knockout for me. When I first joined the room they were playing the YG Carmels connected to the Ypsilon pre and power withe the Esoteris P2/D2 combination. We listened to "Duke's Place" by Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington from a Redbook rip and it was open, thrilling and the imaging was delightful.
I must have come at the right time because they decided to switch to the YG Anats (without the big subwoofer module) which took a few minutes, and then listened to the same cut.
What did not impress me was the extra bass from these much bigger (and much more expensive) speakers, although that was surely there, but an extra dimension to the music, more depth to the vocals, a wider soundstage, and a more enveloping and realistic presentation. It was simply fabulous.
Then I heard two cuts that are well-known at hifi shows and I must have heard these 50 times each over the years - "Keith Don't Go" from the Nils Lofgren live album, and "Tin Pan Alley" by SRV. These were just stunning in the dynamics and precise image placement - really just a couple of mind blowers, in particular the guitar on "Keith ..".
The YG guy asked if we had anything to play (thank you), so I gave them my SHM-SACD of "Black and Blue" to listen to the Rolling Stones doing "Memory Hotel". Oh my - this was out of this world, with huge presence and delineation - actually a very nice recording.
I've heard the YGs a few times, but I've never had a demo like this. Very hard to fault in any way - except price.
Regards,
Geoff
Thanks for the great write up. I really need to be more organized when I attend these shows so I can cover more territory.
I have heard the YGs in the past and agree that they do sound very good. I have been meaning to go to the Loggie shop in Redwood City. I might just do that.
Robert C. Lang
We have the Carmel in the shop, they do sound very good, lots of details,
great dynamics, as you said pity about YG pricing, one can buy a nice car and wonder how hi end hifi should be so expansive.
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