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In Reply to: RE: c'mon KAL ... posted by TBone on July 10, 2012 at 16:38:46
"they (venue & room) share the same attributes in that both the venue and the room have reflections issues related to the music coming from the front of the stage. "
Right but that is only a portion of the entire picture. We do not listen only to signals impinging on us from the front. When you begin to consider the contribution of the listening room, the differences grow considerably.
Follow Ups:
> > Right but that is only a portion of the entire picture. We do not listen only to signals impinging on us from the front. When you begin to consider the contribution of the listening room, the differences grow considerably. < <
Well, at least YOU understood my meaning.
Well, ... obviously sound travels ... and obviously we do not listen only from the front ... and I've already mentioned that reflections make rooms and venue sounds quite different ... so therefore their "contributions" would influence each accordingly ... hence the same attributes.
tb1
".... and I've already mentioned that reflections make rooms and venue sounds quite different ... so therefore their "contributions" would influence each accordingly ... hence the same attributes."
I think I get what you mean but I believe it is only tenuously relevant. You seem to be saying that they would have the same parameters, e.g., a direct sound (relatively similar) and a site-dependent ambiance (decidedly not the same). That is like saying that a red apple and a green apple have the same attributes (OK) without acknowledging how they differ in the value of one of the significant attributes (color).
The ambiance of the original performance site, contained on the recording and improperly conflated into the direct sound, would, on playback, be added to the ambiance contributed by the listening room which is irrelevant to the performance. This imposes a difference which can be ameliorated with multichannel recording and suitable acoustical treatment in the listening room.
I think this is enough logic-jousting for me on this topic.
Kal
> > This imposes a difference which can be ameliorated with multichannel recording and suitable acoustical treatment in the listening room. < <
Matter of perspective, based on my experience, you're still quite a distance from recreating that actual "live" venue within the confines of your room, and that alone is not what I'm after ... but if THAT aspect of reproduction is ones main goal, well ...
> > I think this is enough logic-jousting for me on this topic. < <
Me too.
tb1
Yes, no sound system or format is perfect. None of us has proclaimed that to be true. But, some are better than others. I do not think you are denying that, which is self evident. And, from a lot of experience with both stereo and Mch reproduction, several of us here and elsewhere consider Mch reproduction to be quite a significant leap in the direction of more closely capturing the sound, and hence, the musical experience of the real thing live.
Remember, our Mch systems also play in stereo, too. So we can and have done our own careful comparisons of Mch vs. stereo. For Robert, Kal and I, that is measured, admitedly imperfectly and subjectively, against our considerable live concert going experience with classical music, sometimes with the same orchestras in the same halls as the recordings. Occasionally, we were there when a recording was made live before an audience. At least, I have had that experience on several occasions. And, all that factors into our collective assessment, which greatly favors Mch over stereo in terms of delivering an obviously better sonic replica of the live experience.
As I said, over and over, it it not about the music genre. I respect rock and its creative spirit. And, I have been to more rock concerts than you might expect in both large and smaller venue situations. But, the simple, verifiable fact is there are many, many more successful Mch recordings in the classical genre than there are in any other. I honestly do not think that Mch can be fully appreciated without using classical music and live concert experience with it as a basis for comparison. But, those who prefer other musical genres may well prefer stereo, as there is a very limited set of recordings and live listening opportunities under decent acoustic conditions in those genres to be able to appreciate Mch's sonic capabilities. The genres differ considerably in the technical possibilities and goals of sound engineers to capture a certain sonic experience.
So, if you have truly signed off, I wish you well and happy listening with the music and sound you prefer.
> > Remember, our Mch systems also play in stereo, too. < <
Well, that's like claiming that a Ford Exploder is a great rear powered vehicle in 2w drive ... AND ... it's even better as a 4x4.
I've done the comparison ... despite what you claim ... a finely tuned, highly refined, dedicated 2ch system offers distinct advantages over the vast majority of MC/HT systems in 2ch mode.
> > Occasionally, we were there when a recording was made live before an audience. At least, I have had that experience on several occasions. And, all that factors into our collective assessment, which greatly favors Mch over stereo in terms of delivering an obviously better sonic replica of the live experience. < <
Nice, a requirement that I fully understand and appreciate.
That said, my need for recreating all the details of a specific venue are ONLY equal to the limited amount of software which I possess that were recorded in such proper fashion. The majority of my software does not qualify. But as a true audiophile, certainly, I favor software that was recorded well/live ... and I wish to recreate that event within the confines of my room. As far as the rest of my software, my "tuned" room/environment will supply it's own qualities, much like the Rogers Centre in Toronto supplied Roger Waters his own ... ummm ... "ambiance". (please don't assume I'm claiming that my room = the Rogers Centre)
Hells, bells, why would I want to recreate that specific event within my room, when I can simply play my best-mastered The Wall ... and melt into a pseudo live performance - one that my system provides on a routine basis.
> > As I said, over and over, it it not about the music genre. I respect rock and its creative spirit. And, I have been to more rock concerts than you might expect in both large and smaller venue situations. But, the simple, verifiable fact is there are many, many more successful Mch recordings in the classical genre than there are in any other. < <
Fine, then simply state that next time. Instead, you attempted to minimize my musical taste (of which you were not truly aware) simply as a tool to trump my experiences.
> > But, those who prefer other musical genres may well prefer stereo, as there is a very limited set of recordings and live listening opportunities under decent acoustic conditions in those genres to be able to appreciate Mch's sonic capabilities. The genres differ considerably in the technical possibilities and goals of sound engineers to capture a certain sonic experience. < <
Exactly, as I stated above ... but please note: any highly refined system that offers specific superior attributes, based on any musical genre, such as R&R, will also exhibit those same advantages with other forms of music.
Look, the thing is ... I'd much rather own a great highly refined 2ch system than own a very good off-the-shelf MC system ... but that's just me(*).
((*) well, in the perfect tb1 world, I'd own both)
tb1
TBone says, "Exactly, as I stated above ... but please note: any highly refined system that offers specific superior attributes, based on any musical genre, such as R&R, will also exhibit those same advantages with other forms of music"
Never having been to a live R&R concert in a hay field/similar environment or listening to a band through a PA system, I will never know about reproducing those sonic characteristics in my living room. I suppose stereo is more than adequate since there is no back/side of a hall to reflect anything (sort of like an anechoic chamber (SMILE)).
Stereo will never accurately reproduce multiple room acoustics (real four walls/ceiling) IMHO. Regards. Peace.
> > Never having been to a live R&R concert in a hay field/similar environment... < <
Actually, I have been to outdoor concerts (without walls) but that's neither here nor there ... especially considering that the quote you used above was taken completely out of context (I wasn't referencing acoustics).
tb1
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