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In Reply to: RE: BIS SACD posted by Disbeliever on June 09, 2012 at 02:37:16
Take a recording that you've purchased from them. Use one of the many programs out there to check for the highest level in the total file, not just one selection. If the digital level gets to 0dB (which is a mistake in level setting, but let's save that for another thread) or very close -- even in just one part of the recording, bissie is making an accurate statement -- see his comments below about the level setting that is done by his company -- and his label is not compressing the dynamics. If it is off (-4dB or a lower level), he has some 'splaining to do based on the comments he made.
If you -- or anyone else, for that matter -- are not willing to do this (SACD's can now be ripped, so that's not an excuse, but any recorder with a recording level display can be substituted for this task), you should stop your vendetta against BIS.
Follow Ups:
If your comments are about the Redbook tracks, then what you suggest is possible, as there is an absolute hard and fast level limit on PCM audio at 0 dBfs, i.e. +32767 and -32768 for Redbook. However, there is no such limit for DSD, just a "guideline" such as exists with analog media. As with magnetic tape, as the level is pushed above an arbitrary "0 dB" there is an increase in distortion, eventually resulting in either harsh clipping or with some converters "lock up" where the encoding fails disastrously with continuous loud noise. The point at which this happens depends on the particular music and internal details of the encoder, something that no one talks about as this is proprietary "black magic".
Purist recordings are those that are released in the original format with no processing at all, not even level changes. With these recordings the levels had better be very conservative, otherwise the original recording will be ruined by distortion. The best sounding SACDs are pure DSD recordings, made directly with no subsequent processing other than the equivalent of "razor blade editing". These often come with very low recording levels because that's the way the original was recorded, particularly at a live performance where the engineers may not know how much louder the musicians may play when an audience is present.
My volume control is calibrated in dB, so I know exactly how "loud" any given recording is. In general, those recordings that require turning up my volume control turn out to be higher quality recordings than those that have been artificially boosted. I have several dozen BIS recordings that I've downloaded from eclassical.com. Most are in 44/16 format, some 44/24 which sound better, and the newest ones in 88/24. These have what I would consider "ideal" levels for audiophile quality recordings, but BIS is really a budget label and doesn't use the most expensive state of the art equipment, and I would say that there better recordings can be "very good" but I've yet to hear one that I would call "excellent". By contrast, I have several Channel Classics downloads and these are all excellent recordings. Channel Classics uses the state of the art converters, whereas BIS has been using prosumer gear, such as RME.
If you want to look at dynamic range rather than peak levels, and this was the original issue with this thread, then it is possible to determine this for any format, since one is working on a relative difference, e.g between fortissimo vs. pianissimo . For a large scale orchestral worka this is typically in the range of 45 to 50 dB. Back in the early 1960's this kind of dynamic range was available on pre-recorded 2 and 4 track open reel tapes.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I know what you're referring to, but I did say it was a topic for another thread. The limit that SONY suggests for DSD is -6dB. I believe Cookie Marenco and Barry Diament, among others, master below that. And with PCM, the hard limit is above the limit for distortion-free conversion in most D-A converter (-3dB seems to be the max peak level from the discussions that I've read).
Crap. That's another thread, damn it!
Anyway, the point was that bissie said his label masters the recording such that the level, which I interpret as at least one peak, will reach 0dB. Even if the music only reaches 0dB once in an entire recording, end of discussion. The rest of the music can average -20dB and he's still giving an accurate representation of what his company does. If no peak ever reaches 0dB, or at least very close to it, there's a bit of explaining to do.
Now, if I misinterpreted what he said here at AA , I welcome him to correct me/clarify and urge him to set the record straight.
I have a few dozen BIS recordings, these are in the form of 44/24 or 44/16 downloads from eclassical.com. I picked my most recent purchase, Symphony of Psalms and Rite of Spring. Bissie is correct, the 0 dBfs was reached in the Rite of Spring in 44/16 format. Using short term RMS measurements I measured the dynamic range of this recording to be 50 dB, and the signal to noise ratio about 55 dB. (The "signal" was music that started quietly, I took care not to measure hall reverberations.) In a room that is decently quiet there is no problem hearing pianissimo passages with this recording that a few seconds later become 50 dB louder Fortissimo. (This wasn't possible for me last week, but I have since moved two noisy computers out of my listening room.)
I believe that Cookie does most if not all of her master recordings on tape and transfers to DSD at a later stage. This gives her the luxury of keeping her levels down as she gets a chance to make adjustments as needed on a second pass over her tapes. This isn't possible when recording direct to dSD since there is no way to increase the level without a generation loss of sound quality. I have DSD recordings that light up the "red" 0 dB lights on my Mytek DAC, but there is presently some debate as to what these lights mean with DSD. It seems likely that these recordings are 1 or 2 dB over the Scarlet book "0".
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
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