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In Reply to: RE: BIS SACD posted by Disbeliever on June 09, 2012 at 02:37:16
Apart from Disbeliever's obvious bias against us (here and elsewhere), there are a couple of things I would like to have the answers to from a discerning group such as the one here:
1) why is it - just because "everyone else" are compressing their recordings - that people think that the real thing (and that IS what we present) is recorded at too low a level? What is so difficult to grasp in the notion that the loudest part of the recording is at top allowed technical level on the disc, and the rest simply is - original??
2) What's the point of inventing superior sound carriers, like SACD, if the recording engineers desperately undermine their advantages by NOT using the original dynamics?
3) This kind of devious and inaccurate rumour-spreading (someone did write "no smoke without a fire") is actually harmful, not only to us, but also to the art of recording in general. I think people will have to make a choice:
- either go for manipulated recordings, made to measure for the ones without a good equipment, without good listening conditions or without the time available to really listen, or
- go for the real thing, unadorned, unadultered, unchanged, with the possible disadvantages there are (yes, you do have to have decent equipment, decent listening rooms, time and interest).
I have been in the business for almost 40 years, and I can truly claim to have been totally honest all this time, when it comes to what we present. I represent our recording to be honest and true, and, by Jove, they are. If the public don't like it, well, that will not change my mind. I owe that much to the Artists and the music they play.
Robert von Bahr, bissie, CEO, BIS Records, robert@bis.se
Follow Ups:
Robert - I agree that classical recordings should be uncompressed, and I follow the logic of what you do in your own recordings. But, it seems a stretch to extend your logic to some of the other fine labels in hi Rez classical recording. It seems you do that by inference rather than by actual knowledge. Or, am I wrong in that assessment?
Many of those, like Channel, Telarc, Pentatone, anything done by Polyhymnia or Sound Mirror and others, all use DSD recording and mastering, unlike you. I am not sure if that makes a difference as far as compression goes or not. Either with DSD or PCM, it seems to me that there is such a huge range of possible dynamics over the low noise levels inherent in hi Rez, that they might simply be choosing average levels lower than yours. It seems to me they could be doing this without compression and without much sonic consequence. Of, course, how they adapt that to the CD layer of hybrid recordings, may be another story, and may well involve some compression. I do not know, and actually, I do not care, as I never listen to the CD version.
In any case, I count BIS as one of the best labels out there and, unlike our poor misguided disbeliever, who appears to have a serious dynamic headroom problem in his system and in his feeble brain, I generally find them a pleasure to listen to.
Fitz LOL at your flattering the arrogant Robert and at the same time questioning the dynamics of his discs which are out of step with all others. Furthermore I am not your poor misguided Disbeliever. Fortunately I am not feeble poor or misguided as far as recordings are concerned.
I genuinely respect Robert and his recordings, and I have no plans to stop buying them or give them away out of mindless pique. I have no problems with his choices of levels on the recordings. I merely questioned his conclusions that all other classical labels must necessarily compress theirs. He says they must by the laws of physics. I hear no audible evidence of that, so I question his conclusion. But, that's it. My position and my statements are totally consistent, as you would find if you could actually read and comprehend English.Meawhile, dear Gerald, you continue to make the most collosal ass of yourself in public. I do not know of a single forum in which you have any credibility whatsoever. And, this exchange, initiated by you makes that once again clear to all. Take your meds. Or, maybe you need see a physician to get some. You will feel better, and so will the rest of us.
Edits: 06/16/12
Fitz LOL at your flattering the arrogant Robert and at the same time questioning the dynamics of his discs which are out of step with all others. Furthermore I am not your poor misguided Disbeliever. Fortunately I am not poor or misguided as far as recordings are concerned.
Fitz I LOL at your flattering the arrogant Robert and at the same time questioning the dynamics of his discs which are out of step with all others.
Edits: 06/16/12
You are the one who is out of step with reality. You are ignorant about recording technology and what goes on inside the "sausage factory" at many record labels. It is also likely that you don't go to enough live concerts to know what actual musical dynamics sound like.
It is this ignorance that is the reason why audiophile recordings are rare. The great unwashed masses don't know what music is supposed to sound like, and as a result those of us who do must suffer. If the masses weren't ignorant then the major labels would make better recordings and the pop/rock world would still be selling listenable recordings.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I admit I know very little re recording technology, however I do know what I hear and that is I find BIS SACD discs out of step with all the other major labels for playback volume levels especially with their claim that they are the only one with uncompressed dynamics So they are right and all the other majors are wrong ? I have not read any CD/ SACD reviews complaining re lack of dynamics from other labels.Good luck to those who have no problem with BIS playback levels. I shall not be buying any more BIS discs which even the BBC say need volume level adjustment.
Edits: 06/17/12 06/17/12 06/17/12 06/17/12 06/17/12 06/17/12 06/17/12
Disbeliever said: "I admit I know very little re recording technology, however I do know what I hear and that is I find BIS SACD discs out of step with all the other major labels for playback volume levels especially with their claim that they are the only one with uncompressed dynamics So they are right and all the other majors are wrong ? I have not read any CD/ SACD reviews complaining re lack of dynamics from other labels.Good luck to those who have no problem with BIS playback levels. I shall not be buying any more BIS discs which even the BBC say need volume level adjustment."
I know that I have been advised to just let it go, but I cannot have someone quoting me as saying something I haven't said.
The logic I will not repeat yet another time is unassailable. Mr. Disbeliever obviously does either not understand it, or is disbelieving. I have talked to a number of colleagues that do admit to taking down the very loudest parts in order to get the general (average) level up. I have never said that everyone does it, nor would I ever accuse (if that is the correct word) them of doing so. I just maintain that the logic points in that direction, IF Mr. Disbeliever is correct when he states that all other labels have a louder average level. I have even admitted that in some cases it is possibly preferrable to adjust the levels for easy listening at the consumers' homes. It is a matter of basic honesty with me not to do so, advisable or not, and that's an individual choice, good or bad. It is at least honest that Mr. Disbeliever confesses to knowing "very little" about recordings (surprise, surprise!!), but, if that is so, why doesn't he skip the "Dis" in his moniker and listen to someone that does know a bit or two??
It is almost pathetic that he refers to BBC in almost every post. The situation is VASTLY different with a radio producer, who has to cater to people with perhaps small radios or car radios in an analogue broadcasting system, rather than the audiophile, sitting at home with a decent system. I cater for the latter.
So, to cap: if listening pleasure or ease with the consumer is the main goal, there is no right or wrong. So I certainly don't say that all the others are wrong. However, if the goal is to present what the Artists did, adding or subtracting nothing, then "my way" is the only possible one. As soon as the recording engineer starts twiddling the controls, he is usurping the power of the musicians. Logic, Mr. Disbeliever, logic. Try it sometime. It is not that difficult, but infinitely rewarding.
Robert von Bahr robert@bis.se
phew ! Bissie with regard to the BBC you should understand that the program I refer to is CD review, Presenter & reviewer Andrew McGregor Broadcast every Saturday morning, FM on BBC Radio 3. This programme is for classical CD/SACD only, they play latest releases also older ones to determine what they say is the best performance for building a CD library/collection It is extremely unlikely that listeners are using small radios or car radios, this is a program aimed at classical only audiophiles and connoisseurs.It was on this program that I heard Andrew say the levels of BIS SACD needed adjustment. He has never before as far as I am aware made such a comment re any other label, IMO this substantiates my complaint...
Edits: 06/17/12 06/17/12 06/17/12 06/17/12 06/17/12 06/17/12 06/17/12 06/17/12
Disbeliever,
You seem to be saying that you prefer your audio system to sound like FM radio. That's clearly a personal preference on your part. Perhaps that is why not one single person has posted in your support in this thread. You should have just left this one alone and not posted originally. It has shown you in really poor form.
You should have left Mr. McGregor out of things too.
Absolute Nonsense
Your comment is a complete summation of all your posts in this thread, for sure.
This is of course what I usually expect from you Nonsense nothing changes. .
So, are you out of words now and just repeat yourself?
Look, while you may feel smug and arrogant, you've shown yourself as a total idiot with this thread. You should have left it all alone. You received no support from anyone for your views, only derision. You can deny this all you want, but it's all there in print for anyone to read.
Idiot,I have never said or even implied that I prefer FM radio to my audio system. Do you not understand English. what is wrong in repeating what Andrew McGregor of CD review says about BIS that the levels require adjustment. Get Knotted ,if you know what that means.
I knew you would have something cute in response, and in frustration.
I think the above posting from Mr. McGregor has clarified the issue.
If you don't like the BIS recordings, fair enough, just leave all the other stuff out. You should have just left it all alone.
If you had experience with more than a few SACD's, which I doubt from your irrational position, you would realize that many more than BIS require level adjustment. All here have conceded BIS disks need to be turned up. There is no argument about that. But, many others - I mentioned Praga, but also Harmonia Mundi and quite a few others - need to be turned down. So, you are still ignorantly assuming there is only one correct level, which does not square with the facts. So, get ready to give a whole lot more disks away and enlarge your petty vendetta against a lot more labels.
In any case, only a lunatic would raise such an outrageous and repeated fuss - a whole thread's worth of tirades - over a simple thing like having to adjust the playback level. One commentator on the radio mentioned this, and you have gone totally bonkers, hostile even to experienced audiophiles who are only trying to give you a rational perspective based on much more experience than you obviously possess.
Gerald, you are reaching new lows of credibility and sanity. You need serious help. You are quite simply a nut case, childishly vying for attention rather than engaging in rational discussion. But, in the process, you publically embarrass yourself to a degree which is simply mind boggling. Are you not aware of this? Apparently not.
Healthy skepticism, implied by your moniker, is good. But, that is the opposite or what you are. You are an irrational true believer in only a narrow set of arbitrary ideas, which you hold uncritically against any larger perspective. Once again, you have snatched one belief and doggedly denied the wisdom from many others here, whose experience on the matter far exceeds your own.
I have no problem with SACD on Channel Classics,, Chandos, Decca. Exton,EMI,Hyperion, Living Stereo, Linn, Opus3, Pentatone, Philips, Reference Recording,Sony, Telarc, 2L , Naxos when they produced them. Surely more than a few as you wrongly say, only problem I find is with BIS.
Edits: 06/18/12 06/18/12 06/18/12 06/18/12 06/18/12
Disbeliever said: "I admit I know very little re recording technology, however I do know what I hear and that is I find BIS SACD discs out of step with all the other major labels for playback volume levels especially with their claim that they are the only one with uncompressed dynamics So they are right and all the other majors are wrong ? I have not read any CD/ SACD reviews complaining re lack of dynamics from other labels.Good luck to those who have no problem with BIS playback levels. I shall not be buying any more BIS discs which even the BBC say need volume level adjustment."
I know that I have been advised to just let it go, but i cannot have someone quoting me saying something I haven't said.
The logic I will not repeat yet another time is unassailable. Mr. Disbeliever obviously doesn either not understand it, or is disbelieving. I have talked to a number of colleagues that do admit to taking down the very loudest parts in order to get the general (average) level up. I have never said that everyone does it, nor would I ever accuse (if that is the correct word) them of doing so. I just maintain that the logic points in that direction, IF Mr. Disbeliever is correct when he states that all other labels have a louder average level. I have even admitted that in some cases it is possibly preferrable to adjust the levels for easy listening at the consumers' homes. It is a matter of basic honesty with me not to do so, advisable or not, and that's an individual choice, good or bad. It is at least honest that Mr. Disbeliever confesses to knowing "very little" about recordings (surprise, surprise!!), but, if that is so, why doesn't he skip the "Dis" in his moniker and listen to someone that does know a bit or two??
It is almost pathetic that he refers to BBC in almost every post. The situation is VASTLY different with a radio producer, who has to cater to people with perhaps small radios or car radios in an analogue broadcasting system, rather than the audiophile, sitting at home with a decent system. I cater for the latter.
So, to cap: if listening pleasure or ease with the consumer is the main goal, there is no right or wrong. So I certainly don't say that all the others are wrong. However, if the goal is to present what the Artists did, adding or subtracting nothing, then "my way" is the only possible one. As soon as the recording engineer starts twiddling the controls, he is usurping the power of the musicians. Logic, Mr. Disbeliever, logic. try it sometime. It is not that difficult, but infinitely rewarding.
Robert von Bahr robert@bis.se
I, too, am mystified about all of this. I've read reviews and comments that have said "It is recorded at a lower level" and "I had to crank up the volume" like it was an imposition or a recording defect. I'm sure that most have noticed that chamber music is recorded at a higher level than a Mahler symphony. You just have to get useded to setting the volume at an approximate level for the music you are about to listen to. I know that when I put on a BIS recording, the volume control has to start at a higher setting. I believe Telarc is this way, too.
I also try to keep my listening reasonable when family is in the room, so I usually wait until I'm alone to enjoy your new Rite of Spring in its fullest glory!
You must be doing something right in that you're still in business! Just don't expect to please everyone.
No Telarc is not the wrong way only BIS
I would be much more impressed, Mr. Disbeliever (what a moniker...), if you only once actually answered my logical reasoning. If I put the loudest part at the loudest allowed level (zero dB) and let all controls stay untouched during the whole recording, how can my results in dynamic respect be anything but original and therefore true? That you write that "BIS is wrong" is utter drivel, as long as you don't answer the question of what is wrong with my reasoning. If my colleagues claim that they leave the dynamics untouched as well, their dynamics, all things being equal, would be exactly as mine. If they're not, as you claim, logically there follows that they must have tampered with the dynamics. When you point me at the fault in my reasoning, I will start respecting your opinion. For the time being I claim it is opinionated, biassed drivel.
To Fitzcaraldo ("Robert - I agree that classical recordings should be uncompressed, and I follow the logic of what you do in your own recordings. But, it seems a stretch to extend your logic to some of the other fine labels in hi Rez classical recording. It seems you do that by inference rather than by actual knowledge. Or, am I wrong in that assessment?").
This is pure physics, not opinion. Pure logic and nothing else. I am not claiming that we do better recordings than our colleagues, but, if in fact their "average level" is louder than ours (which is another way of describing a smaller dynamics, given that our top level invariably is 0 dB), then the conclusion about dynamics is unavoidable. That I personally happen to know, from talks with leading colleagues in the business, that it is a fairly common occurrence to "smooth out the edges" makes me even more sure, but isn't logically necessary, and, since those "confessions" were made in privatum, I cannot divulge who said so.
You also write "choose an average level". This is not, with us, true. We don't choose any level except the top one. All other levels are set by the Artists and the music they're playing. On the contrary, if any producer "chooses", that is *actively influences*, ANY level, be it average or other, he has necessarily tampered with the dynamics, which latter no longer is original. This conclusion is based on logic and is also linguistic.
I don't mind in the least if people have problems with our original dynamics. It is the only way I can truthfully present and represent the Artists and what they did. But I do mind being called (indirectly) a liar by the "Disbelievers" of this world. It would suffice entirely, if he had written that he is disturbed by the dynamics and/or the sound quality. That's legitimate. To imply that we are actively tampering, e-x-t-e-n-d-i-n-g the dynamics is bollocks, pure and simple. 'nuff said.
Robert
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