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In Reply to: RE: BIS SACD posted by Disbeliever on June 09, 2012 at 02:37:16
Minimal compression is beneficial for home playback systems, most, and that includes some of the better high end systems that I am familiar with, simply can not cope with the dynamics of a symphony orchestra.
That said, I am glad that we have BIS, my only problem with BIS is their choice of orchestras that they record, wish we could hear Vienna Philharmonic uncompressed but that is not going to happen.
On my two channel home system I have come fairly close to reproducing BIS dynamics with minimal compression, the solution is to use power amplification that offers 10 times more power than is needed for the loudest passages and the speakers must be bi-amplified to avoid congestion at louder passages, I have a DIY speakers with dual 15” for the low end and a three way upper end based on older JBL studio monitors, like any speaker the name of the game is compromise, this one with 99-96 dB sensitivity will handle BIS, (our closest neighbor is 250 feet away).
Speakers with variable sensitivity such as B&W’s, (and I do have B&W's) where the real sensitivity drops down dramatically at higher volumes are ideal for BIS as they introduce their own audio signal compression at louder passages making the uncompressed signal somewhat tolerable.
I am primarily into classical, half of all my SACD’s are solo piano, my ultimate BIS test recording is Rachmaninov sonata #2 played by Sudbin, if you think orchestral dynamics are tough try this one at full volume.
Vahe
Follow Ups:
No compression should ever be used for any classical recording. If the producer wants to limit the dynamic range he should inform the musicians, not the engineers. They can make appropriate adjustments that will preserve their artistry. Engineers will butcher things.
I noticed the absence of speaker compression almost immediately after getting my tri-amplified Focal near field monitors. This correct reproduction of the Fortissimo passages was a huge improvement over any previous sound reproduction that I'd had. Now the limit on playback volume is just my ears. I do have an issue on warm days with fan noise from my computers during pianissimo passages. This wasn't a problem in February, but I will have to fix this before August when the fans rev up to higher RPMs.
I have the Sudbin Rachmaninov in the original (44/24) format. The dynamics are pretty amazing. However, I prefer the Sudbin Scriabin album, same format. Another very nice piano recording I just got is the Lazic Schubert B flat major piano sonata from Channel Classics in a 2 channel DSD download from the Channel Classics web site. Lazic has a very nice piano tone and gets lots of volume out of the instrument without banging on it.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Another BIS piano recording that you should try is Mussorgsky Pictures performed by Freddy Kempf, the last two movements of Pictures are simply scary.
Again, glad we have BIS.
Vahe
Yes and you can download the Sudbin Rachmaninov No 2 in it original unaltered 24/44 format (upconverted for SACD, unfortunately) for all of $4.43 at BIS's eclassical website.
"Minimal compression is beneficial for home playback systems, most, and that includes some of the better high end systems that I am familiar with, simply can not cope with the dynamics of a symphony orchestra.
If this is the case then the system is inadequate for the music being played. A system should reproduce music undistorted at live concert levels, e.g. row 20 in an orchestral hall. If it can't, then complain about the system, not the recordings. With uncompressed acoustic recordings, there is another issue that must be addressed, and that is room noise. Room noise needs to be low enough that it doesn't interfere with listening to quiet passages.
Most of the BIS recordings are good, some very good. They are not often excellent, i.e. audiophile grade, but then most audiophile recordings are made with second rate music and/or musicians and so are useful only for system calibration purposes.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
"A system should reproduce music undistorted at live concert levels, e.g. row 20 in an orchestral hall. If it can't, then complain about the system, not the recordings. "
Really was not complaining about BIS, did you by any chance read the rest on my post?
Vahe
Tony Lauck says:
"A system should reproduce music undistorted at live concert levels, e.g. row 20 in an orchestral hall. If it can't, then complain about the system, not the recordings. "
Should all the BIS buyers own a high end system?? If so a warning label should be on the cd cover.
A few of my classical music friends that do have modest system complains about the BIS volume settings.
Should all the BIS buyers own a high end system?? If so a warning label should be on the cd cover.
"
And speaking of warning, Telarc used to place warning labels on their early recordings both vinyl and early RBCD, but this was not audio signal compression related issue, it was primarily to stop woofer blow ups because of their super exaggerated BOOM BOOM bass drums which became Telarc’s signature house sound.
No such problems with BIS, theirs is true high fidelity, do not mess with the signal, you can always blame the orchestras for the dynamic range that they produce or the playback systems that can not cope with it.
And then there is the popularity of vinyl, an entire generation of old timers that got used to the limited dynamics of this antique format and would not accept anything different, even if it happens to be the real thing.
Vahe
BTW, BIS also used to have stickers on their early CD's, with warnings about their wide dynamic range.And if I may weigh in on the home sound pressure levels issue, I've checked my system with a SPL meter, and I do not exceed 90 DB, and yet a have no problem with hearing the softer portions of BIS recordings. This whole discussion just sounds crazy to me - although some posters, such as you, Tony, Fitz, et al, have injected some sanity back into the discussion. ;-)
Edits: 06/10/12
What Tony Lauck says is absolute nonsense ,you cannot reproduce Concert Hall levels in a normal domestic Home environment.
Edits: 06/10/12
"What Tony Lauck says is absolute nonsense ,you cannot reproduce Concert Hall levels in a normal domestic Home environment."
I do this every day for most kinds of classical music from solo piano through Mahler Symphonies. About the only classical music that I can't reproduce at concert levels are organ fundamentals. My near field monitors are rated at a peak SPL of 118 dB at my listening distance.
I listen in a small room, formerly a bedroom. I live alone and there are no neighbors within hundreds of feet most of the time, so I play the music as loud as I like. Volume is constrained only by my desire for the music to sound unamplified and for my ears to remain undamaged.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
and your ears are still OK ??
I tend not to like loud music, especially in a smallish room.
I also do not like live loud music, when going to listen to live classical music I prefer sitting near the back.
Once I measured at what level I was listening to classical orchestral music and the peaks where around 90db at the listening position and this was pretty loud. My speakers are efficient (92db) thus in theory I was only using less than 1 watt of power with the volume control about 50% open.
I do not listen at 118 dB. This figure comes from the manual for my monitors. The manual also includes a warning about possible hearing damage.
I play most recordings at a volume setting about 20 dB lower than what the system is capable of, which means instantaneous peaks just under 100 dB and fortissimo orchestral passages at an average of 85 dB, about the same level you describe. Anything louder for more than a short period will result in hearing loss. However, I know that the system still plays cleanly after increasing the gain by 20 dB from this usual setting, but I have to be in the hallway outside the door at the back of the room at this point.
The confusion comes from the difference between peak power and average power. For a sine wave, this difference is 3 dB. For a typical recording of a symphony orchestra this difference is more like 20 dB. The better the recording the more power will be required to handle peaks. A typical current pop/rock recording will have a ratio below 10 dB, which means that you can destroy your hearing while creating 1/10th the greenhouse gases. :-)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
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