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OK, another I need recommendations for a new set of headphones thread. Sorry. Background; moved to a new house with a significantly smaller music room. Had to go from full range VMPS speakers to B&W monitors with a sub. Was painful but we've adjusted. However, the house is smaller all around, so I need to put together a headphone system for when my wife is home watching TV and so on.
Current set-up - Counterpoint preamp into an Alpha GT40 headphone amp. Headphones are Bose noise cancelling (for airplanes), Sennheiser HD-280, and Sennheiser HD-580. The 280's are very midrange prominent and are not at all comfortable for any length of time. They are good for recording sessions (I play guitar and other various instruments) as they have good isolation. The 580's have a nice smooth mid-range and high end, good detail, but are lacking (for me) in low end. So I'm looking for a set of headphones that have really, really good low end, with the midrange and high end of the 580's AND I can wear for 2-3 hours at a time and not be uncomfortable. I have already tried the HD-600 and HD650 cans and still not enough low end.
So my question - before I begin to try and find stores to go listen what brands/style should I focus on? I'd rather not waste time listening to cans that other know do not have the low end I'm looking for. So anyone have some good suggestions? Budget is around $600, plus or minus $50-$100. Right off the bat the new AudioQuest Nighthawk (I think that's right) look interesting.
As an aside, the headphone amp will be upgraded later as well, but I want to do the cans first.
Thanks!!
Al
Follow Ups:
In general, I would look to classics that are in the "high end" but not necessarily so high priced. My Sennheiser HD600s have beat many supposedly "better" phones here, including the HD800. I'd suggest AKG701, Beyer DT-880, Grado SR325i, etc. Also note that it is very easy to apply digital EQ before processing, if you are using a computer digital setup which is common now. So, you can tweak that easily. Far too much commentary these days is about relatively minor variances in frequency response, which are easily correctable, and little about the characteristics of a headphone which I find are vastly more important. Mostly, I look for a sense of clarity and ease. By "clarity" I don't mean a tipped up treble, or "detail," but a sense of non-confusion in the midrange. "Ease" is a range of related factors which don't really "sound" like anything perceivable, but are experienced as a relaxation and trust. You don't have to fight the sound. Along with both of these factors, I like a lot of tone density, a sense of saturation instead of anything bleached or blanched.
I wish I could say that headphones are actually rather easy to make, and any decent company, like a Beyerdynamic or a Sennheiser, can make a good one for under $400. I wish I could say that there really isn't much meaningful difference beyond this point, except maybe blingy build quality, and some minor differences which are really just differences, not necessarily improvements.Unfortunately, I find that I really do prefer some headphones much more than others, due to certain inherent qualities, not just some FR characteristics that I personally enjoy. Also, I find that others' reviews of headphones are almost worthless. Also, I find that, beyond $300 or so, you don't necessarily get anything better for a higher price. The fact that I like my HD600s (after nearly fifteen years) more than even the HD800s from the same company, by a large margin, and also better than some other options I've had around, makes me think that maybe there is another headphone which I could prefer to the HD600, by a similar margin.
Edits: 01/01/16
Some good points, thanks. The HE-400S cans came in, and after over 100 hours of breakin they are sounding pretty good - certainly less congested in the midrange than my HD-580's. I did insert a dbx EQ into the headphone loop, and ended up increasing the low end between 2 and 3 db to get them sounding like I'd like them to. With that in mind, I'm now very pleased with these cans, and do plan on ordering the focus earpads next week which might allow me to eliminate the EQ.
Also, as was suggested earlier in this thread, I've ordered a Schiit Audio Valhalla headphone amp to replace my Alpha.
More to come later....
Al
The K-701, HD-600/650, and Grado SR-325 remain (to my ears at least) as some of the best bargains in headphones. When noise isolation is desired, the Sennheiser Momentum 2.0 is very listenable and is my choice in "budget hi-end" closed-back headphones. The new HiFiMan HE-400s should probably be included in the budget hi-end category as well, according to many reports.I own recabled K-701, HD-650, and RS-1i headphones, and I consider them to be the indispensable trio for my tastes and listening habits. To my ears, each different pair has a personality that is well-tuned or suited to certain musical genres and/or types of recordings. I use K-701 mostly for jazz, HD-650 mostly for classical, and RS-1i mostly for rock and similar styles. The combined MSRP cost for all three headphones (including Cardas recabling) would be bit over $2000 - about the same amount as a single pair of *upper high-end* headphones. But, I feel that I am truly getting the most for my money this way.
Other people will disagree with the above assessments, of course. And YMMV as well. But this is where it's at, at least for me.
Edits: 01/01/16
Good morning. I hope everyone had a great Christmas. After some research, and a TON of help from EdA (many, many thanks!) I have ordered a pair of HE-400S headphones. This gives me a couple of things right away:
1. Better compatibility with my current headphone amp. (matched impedance)
2. More low end. We'll see if it's enough.
3. My introduction into planer headphones.
Package tracking says they will be delivered Monday. As I'm off all week I suspect I'll be under the cans a bunch!!
Al
I have a pair from most the major Mfg.s The Grados 225 and the Beyer DT770's are my favs
Thanx Bill
Ten years ago I carried my tube amplifier to the local hi-fi dealer and auditioned Grado. I was blown away. Great company, great service, great phones! You'll be surprised by how much money you don't have to spend.
--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
I also own the HD-280 Pro and the HD-580 and understand your assessment of these headphones. I have recently taken the plunge based on the recommendation of Tyll over and InnerFidelity and bought a pair of HiFi Man HE-400S.
These are only $299 but don't let the price fool you. These headphones might be exactly what you are looking for. They are easy to wear for long periods of time (I wear them all day long while I am working) and have better bass than some give them credit for.
These headphones will sound bass heavy when you have a bass heavy track. They are open backed and allow your head to breath. They are much easier to wear than the HD-580s or 280s and have better sound quality than the HD-580 and eat the 280s for lunch.
I have a long list of high resolution digital tracks and ran into one today that caused my whole body to vibrate from the bass energy...so the HE-400S can get down and make it shake. The midrange is totally neutral and the high end can sparkle if the track has the detail.
They are another example of planar magnetic phones but these are very easy to drive. They are 22 ohm phones with a 98db sensitivity. You can drive these with a portable...like your smart phone.
Below is the link to the review that led me to buy the HE-400S.
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
Read the review you referenced, and this line gave me pause: "Bassheads beware: The HD400S is probably not the headphone for you." I used the HD-580's with my MacBook, and using the EQ (only a 10 band, not even a 2/3 or 1/3 octave) I needed an 8db boost at 64Hz, 4db boost at 125Hz, and a 2db boost at 250Hz (really a low mid-range frequency) to get them to sound like I wanted. Unfortunately, of course, the clarity and detail was lacking vs my regular rig. So my question back to you is does the HD400S have that much additional low end?
Al
But that does not mean they can not dig down and make your whole body shake with good bass energy. People have written that they have even more bass energy with focus pads (which are available from the HiFi Man website for $39). NOTE: Focus pads are alternate ear pads.
I do not find the HE 400S significantly lacking in bass but I ordered a set of focus pads just to see what they would do (its only $39). I cannot let you know what they do yet as I am still waiting for the delivery.
The problem, if that's what you call it, is that the HE-400S comes with velour earpads, which are very comfortable, but that allows some of the sound to leak out and causes some of the low end to roll off.
I still find that the HE-400S, as they are out of the box, to have enough bass energy to make them enjoyable for anyone except for people who demand the highest bass energy possible. I have tracks with significant bass energy that the HE-400S reproduces without complaint. I have had them cause my whole body to vibrate with clean focused bass and that is with the stock velour ear pads.
IMO, the HE-400S makes the HD-580 sound second class without any equalization. The veiled sound that fairly/unfairly gets hung on the HD-580 is not part of the sound character of the HE-400S...at all. I find the bass reproduction to be cleaner and more focused than the bass from the HD-580.
What kind of music do you listen to and exactly what are your concerns on the bass reproduction? If you give me a list of some tracks that I may have, I can give them a critical listen and give you honest feedback.
If you want to try this let me know the name of the tracks and specific things to listen for.
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
That is most kind of you to do that. I just want to make sure I don't get on the buying/selling merry-go-round in order to find the best headphones for me, so this is most welcome.
I'm kind of all over the place, but for rock I like Toto (their latest CD, XIV, is very bass heavy), Dream Theater, Seventh Key, and Winger. Another band that has mastered their CD's with tons of bass is Firehouse. For Jazz and Blues Larry Carlton, Robbin Ford, SRV, Bobby Lyle. Just doing comparisons on any tracks with those artists and letting me know the difference in bass would be great. I'm not a "boom box" type of bass guy, but I do like tight punchy bass, so here at home I like to feel it, which is why I have a 12" Velodyne sub in an 11x12 room. I also do not like metal dome tweeters, which is why the next to go are my B&W's. Will be looking to return to soft dome tweeters like I had for 20 years with my VMPS Tower IIr's.
Let me know if you have any ideas on music material as well, as I've got 4,000 Albums and 1200 CDs, so I'm sure we have some in common. :+)
Thanks again!!!
Al
Al,
Perhaps it would be best to shift this conversation to email. Please contact me at edaris@hotmail.com and we will continue there.
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
Good idea. I'll try and see where my closest dealer is. I travel a lot so I might have to take a side trip if there is not one near me in Central FL.
Al
.., even thought they are almost 100 grams heavier than the Sennheiser HD-600. One of the biggest drawbacks to planar headphones (weight) has almost been completely alleviated with the HE-400S.
I think they should put these ear pads on the HE-400S by default but they make quite a difference. Worth more than the $39.00 they charge for them.
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
nt
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
Just got a pair of HiFiMan 560s on sale from Moon Audio ($200 off), so not much over your budget. I'd recommend them highly, nicely balanced top to bottom, a full rich sound. Still breaking in, but loving what I'm hearing.
If you haven't already, you might spend some time on HeadFi.org's forums, lots of great reviews and info.
http://www.head-fi.org/
Another good resource is Inner Fidelity's site, he does a tremendous job reviewing and comparing headphones.
http://www.innerfidelity.com/
+1 on HiFiMan 560s
Thanks! I'll do so. There are not too many options for listening to headphone before you buy, so reviews are most helpful.
The HD-580's are very balanced, but I like lots of low end, so I'm going to experiment with the EQ I mentioned in an earlier post just to see how much I really want.
Al
If you want more bass, the NightHawk has it. However, it doesn't sound as open as the HD 580. The NAD VISO HP50 might be another contender as well as something like the Oppo PM-3.
Get an amplifier more suited to the HD-580's and the bottom end will flesh out nicely.
Well, unfortunately that doesn't help me. There is plenty of low end with the 280's but way too much midrange, so I'm not sure it's the amp. That said, then please suggest an amp. Just understand, I'm looking for 4-6db more low end, and my understanding of the term "flesh out" would just be a small amount.
Al
Yeah, the 280's having more bass than the 580's tends to point to the difference in impedance not playing well with your amplifier.
I certainly understand and get that, but the 580's don't have enough bass with the Alpha, my Iphone, my Adcom, my Soundcraft mixing console, or my Qinpu so my conclusion is overall they don't have enough bass for me. And it's not just missing a little bit for my tastes. So I'm looking for something with more slam or thump, but still clarity in the mids and highs.
I have an extra dbx 15 band stereo EQ that I've though about adding between the Counterpoint and the Alpha, but I'm sure I'll lose some clarity and detail in the process.
Al
You're basically using a bunch of amps that all have similar limitations.
You ought to look for a regional Headfi amp, bring your 580's, and try an OTL tube amplifier on them.
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