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150.9.70.122
If I could go back and guide myself with audio gear I would probably save a lot of time and money. Granted some of that experience and ca$h resulted in a fun experience but I could have saved a lot 'only if I had known'.
1.Be slow to dive into the Dac race and even slower in changing Dac's.
2.Don't buy into the wire thing
3.If it says 'Class A' don't buy it
4.Don't buy into gadgets that go between one piece of gear and another
I think I wasted the most money on 1 and 4. You can easily nickle and dime yourself into what would have been a great piece of gear buying gadgets.
J.
Follow Ups:
Eschew "latest/greatest" for what gently rocks your boat.
What happens if you're deaf and you want to hear his opinion?
.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
...
with the purchase of a Fisher 500C at the Navy exchange in Subic Bay (mated, when I got home, with University triaxials in DIY enclosures). What I learned along the way, which included a late-1970s sales stint at San Jose's Garland Audio:
1. Forget the hype about which topology or technological approach is "best". To me, the three keys to "success" are implementation, implementation, and implementation.
2. A key component of any audio system is the listening room and what you do with it.
3. Whatever an electronic component's published specs, the quality and robustness of its power supply matters.
4. Power conditioning, including the treatment of noise fed into the system by the operation of the components themselves, matters.
5. "Wire" matters.
6. Recordings aren't "reality", but rather a reflection of an artist's, producer's, and engineer's production values.
7. "Recommended Components" reflect someone's assessment of a component (or system) evaluated in an environment and/or based on value judgments that may not reflect your own.
Submitted with the acknowledgment that these assertions reflect my own biases.
Jim
It would be hard to argue with any of those points. The only qualifier I would add to #1 is that each family of speakers, whether planars, horns, or dynamic drivers, produces its own character of sound (for lack of a better descriptor). Once someone determines which of those types is preferable to them, then #1 fully applies.
agree with all points
...nt
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
My audio path started 73 years ago when I modified my Fender guitar amp to accommodate an RCA 45 RPM record player, passed through HeathKits, Dynakits, Marantz 18, Proceed, Parasound, Ayre to a KEF LS60 with a pair of KC62s. From the Marantz forward I still have all that stuff. At 88 I need to sell it. I'm moving to an apartment in a local life-care community, so the LS60 and Roon are all I need for music. A Sony HT A9 and 85" TV take care of my HT needs.
What about the KC62's?
J.
I consider the KC62s part of the LS60 setup. I'll try the apartment setting the KEF set up app offers, but the deep bass I enjoy is the barely audible vibration from pipe organ pedal notes. I don't know if that would transmit to other apartments if the soundproofing is as good as it's said to be. When I stroll the grounds I'm struck by how quiet it is, with no sound emanating from an apartment.
If I had known:
In source and electronics - make big steps up in performance. Small steps are usually sideways.
In speakers - I like variety. Swapping keeps the upgrade itch at bay.
Convenience counts - if your system is user friendly, you use it more.
Gsquared
+1. When I saw "swapping" and "keeping the upgrade itch at bay", it hit home. That's been my philosophy for several years. 5 pairs of speakers, 4 amps, 2 pre-amps, 5 DAC's, 2 transports and but only one turntable. Plus a wicker laundry basket full of assorted cables. Started this collection years ago when I finally had the financial freedom NOT to have to sell component A to buy component B. Or worse yet, sell system A to buy system B. There were too many times after a couple months went by that I wished I'd kept component A or system A.
For me it's less about financial freedom and more about internally hardwired frugality. I've struggled to overcome the "must sell component (or system) A to buy component (or system) B" mentality. I admire you for finding that place. I also have had far too many instances when I regretted selling component A. The lesson, of course, is that so-called "upgrading" doesn't always result in better sound quality.
. . . in theory, practice and theory are the same; in practice, they are different . . .
Thx. I'm sure we've all learned some hard lessons along the way. I've been lost and confused more than once. A big step along the way was learning to trust my own ear. Following a reviewer's word got me into trouble more than a few times.
Never bothered with either Stereophile or Absolute Sound.
Instead, just go into the high priced spread shops and listen to decide if all that cash layout is justified.
...and I realize that you're not suggesting that they are.
I've never found an amp better for my speakers than my 'class A mode' First Watt F1J, for example.
I've managed to avoid the DAC of the month club by keeping my primary focus on my turntable based system. Cartridges and phono stages may have been refined over the years, but not with the whirlwind regularity which seems to render DAC's from a few years ago on everyone's shit list today.
If I had one 'do over', it would be to have spent less on FM tuners. Who knew that most stations would become formulaic 'same twenty songs over and over', and compress their signal to sound all but lifeless? Certainly not me.
My list was a list that pertained to me [only] not one that I assumed applied to the world and everyone in it.
I would suspect everyone to have their own list -or- no list at all.
If someone has every heard First Watt, there is nothing they can do but agree....although not for me, they sound fantastic.
J.
1.Be slow to dive into the Dac race and even slower in changing Dac's.
Agreed..... Not with just DACs, but any component..... The key is living with the item for an extended period of time, and then realizing whether it's good or it isn't.
2.Don't buy into the wire thing
There are so many cables out there..... And price does not necessarily correlate to better sound..... I'm currently using expensive interconnects and cheap speaker cables..... Whatever works.
3.If it says 'Class A' don't buy it
Too generalized to throw all "Class A" under the bus..... I personally like direct-heated single-ended triode Class A amplifiers.....
4.Don't buy into gadgets that go between one piece of gear and another
I generally agree with this, but there is one case where I do not agree..... The Audiophonics DIGIRescue reclocker works great between my Wiim Pro Plus streamer and Topping D90-III DAC..... I wouldn't run an inexpensive streamer and DAC without this unit.
Each case is different..... And people get different results with various things..... The key for each individual, "whatever works"......
I.e., as opposed to the amplifier topology sense of the term.
The key words, though, are I suspect . ;)I, too, am good with the kind of Class A that means that the active devices are biased 'on' 100% of the time and thus conducting (amplifying) though the entire waveform. :)
all the best,
mrh
Edits: 10/01/24
thanks Mark,
always like to post a pic of
Don's art.
love the Almarro look a like
Chassis
Class A on steroids.
enn tee
all the best,
mrh
Excellent point! I hadn't thought about that - serves me right for not reading hifi mags.
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
Edits: 10/01/24
.
Class A amps are overrated. I've owned two but my other amps were better. Like any design there are good ones and not so good.Class A rankings in audio magazines are a sham.
Edits: 10/02/24
nt
all the best,
mrh
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I have to admit I do use some DC power filtering gadgets. Other than that all my wires I make myself.
J.
Doubt I would have saved any money since I audition in advance and retain most gear for long periods of time.
1. Not part of the DAC-of-the-Month club. Give me a quality chip set feeding a balanced discrete output stage with separate linear power supplies for digital and analog sections. Last upgrade was eight years ago to similar model that supports high resolution USB input.
2. While cabling of all manner affects signal quality, audition before buying and purchase appropriately for the system. Choose low EDC signal cables.
3. Don't pay attention to Stereophile rankings . If you refer to mode of amplification, it makes perfect sense for line level stages. My DAC and preamp run class A without any need for "correction".
4. Not interested in any number of signal processing products.
Aside from enjoying the music....I have been trying different gear (mostly used gear*) in my home for decades and not because I'm looking for that "perfect system". For me it's been about experiencing different equipment and different sounds. I've probably had a dozen of every piece of audio electronics in my system including CDPs, DACs, Amps, Preamps, Integrated Amps, Tuners, Phono Preamps, Music Servers, etc. I've had pricey cables and cheap pro cables. I have been burned more than once by so-called Class-A recommended components in the audio rags.
Bottom line: Sound quality is not proportional to higher price as the Recommended Components lists will have you believe.
* Buy it used at a discount. Turn around and sell with no loss or very little loss.
Edits: 09/30/24 09/30/24
1. - I agree about DACs. Why buy a matchbox-sized board and put it in its own costly case with its own power supply, sockets, etc? Better to have the DAC built into a CDP, or more likely these days, an amplifier or streamer/ preamp.
2. Couldn't agree more. Buy good honest pro wire, not grossly-overpriced audiophile stuff
3. Yes, there's no need to add to your fuel bills (and probably AC coats too) with Class A. Similarly tubes. There are equally good Class D amps around if you choose carefully.
4. Anything that interrupts the signal flow between source and speakers is never going to improve the signal. Some are unavoidable (DAC, amplifier, etc) but devices such as tone controls, DSP room correction (they never can improve the room!) do the signal no favours.
Just goes to show while we all have similar destinations there are lots of ways to try to get there.
(1) Sticking your DAC with its digital noise into a single chassis with all the rest of your system? Nightmare. Never heard an integrated Streamer / DAC / preamp / amp) that moved me (e.g., Devialet). With digital, isolation, power supplies and clocking are key.
(2) Agree IME, disagree - I have had cables make substantial differences- positive and negative. Get your system components down first, of course, but cables are a real part of the equation.
(3) This one blows my mind. Dissing on Class A and tube amps in favor of class D? I honestly think we have different viewpoints on the absolute sound because this is so fundamentally different from my experience. I have never heard a class D amp come within the same stadium as the top class A or tube amps.
(4) I don't have enough experience here, but in general this one makes some sense. Back in the day having a reclocker between a transport and DAC could yield a positive difference, but not so much today (syncing to an external clock is a different story, but that is technically not between components).
The Eversolo DMP-A8 is an all-in-one Streamer / Music Server / DAC / Preamp that operates seamlessly as an integrated unit BUT if desired each section can be operated completely independent of each other. Standalone streamer, standalone music server, standalone DAC, standalone preamp. Leave them independent or cross-couple the sections that you want.
As an example, I can use the streamer within the Eversolo A8 along with its internal DAC and preamp -or- I can use an external streamer or music server with external DAC coupled to its preamp. There are several supported permutations.
Eversol DMP-A8
Hi Abe - I had quickly read your interesting post about the Eversolo A8 but, as soon as I got round to responding, I found it had been deleted! Now it's back again, thanks.
I gather you have this clever box of tricks and like it. It's on my list as a possible alternative to my current favoured next upgrade - the NAD M66. I have a few others too but they are more costly.
Have you heard the M66 and if so, how would you rate it against the A8?
What I'm always concerned about with streamers is the control app that many brands don't seem to pay much attention to. What's the A8's app like? Can it be loaded onto Windows PC as well as Android and iPhone?
I'm used to the excellent BluOS app and I'm reluctant to move to a streamer than doesn't offer an app as useful and comprehensive as BluOS. Or do you use Roon? This may be the option if there's no good Eversolo app, but it requires extra hardware and a subscription, taking away some of its price advantage over the NAD.
Anyway, if there's anything you could tell me about to encourage (or otherwise) the purchase of an A8, I'd be very interested to hear it. Thanks. Peter
Peter -I have not heard the NAD M66 and I am not familiar with BluOS so I cannot compare them against the Eversolo DMP-A8.
The Eversolo App is excellent for device settings, source selection, choosing and launching streaming services, and general operation of the device. However, I have not thoroughly tested it for music library management. I connected an external SSD with music on it and while it works, I am spoiled by Roon. Many of my albums are missing album art and the Eversolo will show 'blanks'. In comparison Roon will automatically provide album art and other meta data for albums that are missing their own.
You can control the Eversolo from its touch screen or install the Eversolo App on your smartphone or tablet. I don't think it's available for Windows PC's or Mac OS. I run Roon on all of the above for my music navigation and playback.
There are dozens of reviews up on YouTube for the Eversolo DMP-A8. I would start there.
Eversolo DMP-A8 Main Home Screen
Eversolo DMP-A8 App on my iPhone offers the ability to remote control all settings and music playback.
Some Apps on the Eversolo. More can be downloaded.
Eversolo screen alerted me to an available software update this morning.
Painless trouble free update over the network. The whole process took about 5 minutes.
Edits: 10/02/24 10/02/24 10/02/24
Thanks Abe for that. I had already read the Stereophile review of the Eversolo A8, but I generally avoid Youtube reviews as anyone can set themselves up as a "reviewer" without knowing anything more than the rest of us! However, but I'll do some selective reading.Just based on specs though, I'm inclined to look more favourably at the NAD M66.
A8 advantages - price, option of internal hard drive, USB In
M66 advantages - Dirac Live, DLBC, sub outs with filters, BluOS control, AES/EBU In, Radio Paradise.I mention Radio Paradise as I listen quite often. Do you know if the A8 offers this? Also, do you know if the A8 can output album artwork or other info onto a TV screen connected via HDMI? I like this feature in my M33 (specially when I have visitors), but I believe it's been dropped from the M66. I'd be disappointed if it has!
Arranging the loan of a demo A8 may be difficult, but I'll investigate.
Edits: 10/03/24
Some YouTube reviews of the Eversolo are pretty good. I view them to get a better feel for features and operation but not so much for reports on audio quality. Darko is pretty good with his reviews."M66 advantages - Dirac Live, DLBC, sub outs with filters, BluOS control, AES/EBU In, Radio Paradise. "
If you use those feature I suppose some of them could be important to you. I use none of them.
The Eversolo does support Radio Paradise but I haven't played with it.
The Eversolo doesn't have Dirac Live but it has built-in DSP to tailor the response if you like tinkering. I can see some benefit there but I do the occasional DSP for EQ within Roon. I engage it infrequently. It does not have AES/EBU. No filtered Sub out but I use the Eversolo RCA outs to my two subs. I adjust freq response and gain on my subs.
You can connect the DMP-A8 to HDMI and display it's screen and album art to a big TV. There are other ways to do that too from your phone. I know it works with iPhone. I do not have an Android phone. If you have the Eversolo App running on your iPhone to control the DMP-A8, you can simultaneously send the phone's screen up to a TV that supports AirPly mirroring. This is just another way to achieve the desired result in addition to a direct HDMI connection from the Eversolo to the TV.
Edits: 10/05/24 10/05/24
Thanks Abe - Al very helpful. I'll do more research, but I'm waiting for a worthwhile M66 review. I'm told Stereophile as reviewed it, but not yet published the results.
(1) Sticking your DAC with its digital noise into a single chassis with all the rest of your system? Nightmare. Never heard an integrated Streamer / DAC / preamp / amp) that moved me (e.g., Devialet). With digital, isolation, power supplies and clocking are key.
I agree wholeheartedly with this..... Mainly because I'd like to have control over how each section of the digital stream operates..... Not to mention, it's easier to upgrade a part of the stream that isn't quite there than having to try a whole new "all-in-one".....
and some continue to misunderstand the notion that the noise and interference caused by close proximity of inherently high RFI circuitry to amplification stages manifests itself as loss of transparency, not overt noise or hiss.
I greatly prefer flexible placement and not getting tied to any one vendor.
> I agree wholeheartedly with this..... Mainly because I'd like to have control over how each section of the digital stream operates..... Not to mention, it's easier to upgrade a part of the stream that isn't quite there than having to try a whole new "all-in-one".....
Ah, but there's a downside to that. If you upgrade a single part of your system, you are likely to buy something appreciably better than the part it replaces. Then, as sure as night follows day, there's a new "weak spot" in your system, so you replace that, only to find a fresh weak spot.
There's something to be said for a go-the-whole-hog upgrade and change an all-in-one (or integrated or streamer/preamp or whatever) to a better all-in-one where every part represents an upgrade. Cheaper in the long run, I suspect. and the upgrade will offer a far greater improvement immediately.
1. If your amp or streamer designer cannot get around the claimed "nightmarish digital noise" of an integral DAC, he isn't doing his job. I have never detected any noise with a DAC that's built into my amp2. Some agreement here!
3. My early Class D amps were pretty poor but like digital cameras, things have changed dramatically to the extent that (like digital cameras) there's little justification for looking elsewhere. I home auditioned a dozen amps of all ss flavours when I decided to move away from SET tube amps. I was expecting that one of the Class A amps would win the day, but not so. I found an excellent AB amp but also an equally excellent Class D one that offers every bit of goodness as any of the tube amps I've owned. I can only suggest that you borrow a first-class Class D amp to try at home. Look at a Purifi Eigentakt amp, but from a well-established brand - not an Ebay purchase from a garage-builder using the Purifi Eval(uation) board. NAD's M23 or the T+A equivalent may well astonish you!
4. Sorry - I can't remember what this was about, but we seem to be in approximate agreement!
PS - Not "dissing" Class A or tube amps apart from their obscene extravagance with power wastage. I really liked my Class A Accuphase and my SETs, but I preferred the best of the D amps. I've also ditched my film cameras, although I keep several in a display case as examples of a quaint and costly technology - but rightfully now dead!
Edits: 09/30/24
about the environmental aspects of non-switcher amps.
So that all of us can get warm fuzzies actually believing that peeing in the ocean makes a difference. Forget the reality that China's emissions (where his favorite brand is manufactured) are half that of the entire world .
Maybe he should worry more about widespread villains like tire production instead. :)
Of course my comments about saving energy and putting on AC to cope with the heat generated by Class A and tube amps was a bit of a leg-pull, but if everyone left their electric devices running 24/7 and ran around in gas-guzzling cars (the Chinese don't do these because they are poor), the problems of global climate change will continue to accelerate.
By chance I was listening to the radio today when the subject was solar panel generation and the amount of energy some countries generate by this non-fossil technology. China in 2023 generated twice the solar energy of the US and will be adding 5 times more by next year.
Things have to be manufactured somewhere and energy is needed to do this. The Industrial Revolution started in the UK and we were doubtless the highest emitter of CO2, etc than anywhere else, including the US and China. As we lost our manufacturing industries after WWII (often to Japan or the US), their emissions vastly increased. The only reason China's emissions are as high as they are now, is that they've taken away much of your (and the EU's) manufacturing industry. It's sad that the UK, US and EU are losing out on these industries, but that's why, by definition, China's emissions are so high.
They are doing more than anywhere else to counter this (albeit nowhere near fast enough), by adding renewable generation faster than anywhere else.
Most of my audio kit was built in Germany - about 80% by value and the 20% that's built in China just means that North American emissions are a little lower than if I bought US or Canadian-built stuff!
Keep smiling and turn off the AC! ;-)
but if everyone left their electric devices running 24/7 and ran around in gas-guzzling cars...If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass.
China in 2023 generated twice the solar energy of the US and will be adding 5 times more by next year.
You're not a big picture guy. While every other industrialized country has continued to close coal plants (I see the UK is about to close its last), they have been running full speed building new coal plants for the past ten years. For obvious reasons, wind and solar cannot be used entirely given their variability in output. These are large scale projects that must be amortized over decades. It's not like they can just turn in the lease in three years. The US has actually lowered emissions despite considerable growth since 1980. Theirs has quadrupled. Spare me the insignificant *improvements* when you ignore the overall situation.
The only reason China's emissions are as high as they are now, is that they've taken away much of your (and the EU's) manufacturing industry.
Partially. Indeed, because they play by different rules. The average person gets paid coolie wages. The concept of worker or environmental safety is non-existent. Despite the fact that their culture is 5000 years old and they have a space program with lunar landers, the rest of the world continues to subsidize shipping because they are considered "transitional". How f...ing long will their multi-thousand year transition take?
Edits: 09/30/24 09/30/24
> Partially. Indeed, because they play by different rules. The average person gets paid coolie wages. The concept of worker or environmental safety is non-existent. Despite the fact that their culture is 5000 years old and they have a space program with lunar landers, the rest of the world continues to subsidize shipping because they are considered "transitional". How f...ing long will their multi-thousand year transition take?
If China paid their workers better wages, all these workers would be ditching their bicycles and buying cars - and installing AC - and even Class A amps! Perhaps it's best if their 5000 year old traditions continue, at least until they install more fossil-free generation.
Today, the UK is currently generating over 40% of its power from renewables (it was 58% early this morning) and only 22% from fossil fuels with Zero from coal. I wonder what the US figures are, or the Chinese.
Have we diverted rather too far from the Subject? Interesting though.
"Have we diverted rather too far from the Subject?"If I remember correctly, from reading it a few minutes ago, "you" got onto the soapbox about energy usage/emissions/China/renewables/AC/etc. ;)
Maybe "we" can get back on track if I ask for a reply to my reply to your reply to the OP's message, re: "Tone Controls", in which I wrote:
"Loudspeakers typically have crossover networks which are at "speaker level", sometimes called "high level". The components of such crossovers are much more deleterious to the signal than well-designed low-level tone controls in a decent quality preamp. Audiophiles sometimes talk about how well a speaker is "voiced" or who does a great job of it, completely ignoring the effects of the high-level components needed to accomplish it - big capacitors, inductors and resistors, sometimes in complicated layouts."
"A well-designed tone control, on the other hand, can be used to adjust the sound without huge adverse effects."
"Another reason is that tone controls enable a person to adjust the sound of various recordings to suit their taste, and to compensate for recorded sound quality flaws, as well as to compensate for loudspeaker flaws."
On the other hand, you were "right on" when you wrote "DSP room correction (they never can improve the room!)". As is too often the case, "room correction" is a misnomer. More accurately, it should be called "room compensation". Actually, it's a little like putting lipstick on a pig - it's still a pig.
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
Edits: 10/01/24
Have we diverted rather too far from the Subject?
you have introduced the absurd when discussing amplifiers. Give it a rest!
I think you took us down the absurd path with the first mention of the environment in the thead. IMO, class A amplifiers are an insignificant part of the world's energy usage. And all the audiophiles will be dead within a few years so that 'problem' will go away!
IMO, class A amplifiers are an insignificant part of the world's energy usage.
There is some sanity at the asylum . ;)
:)
Loudspeakers typically have crossover networks which are at "speaker level", sometimes called "high level". The components of such crossovers are much more deleterious to the signal than well-designed low-level tone controls in a decent quality preamp. Audiophiles sometimes talk about how well a speaker is "voiced" or who does a great job of it, completely ignoring the effects of the high-level components needed to accomplish it - big capacitors, inductors and resistors, sometimes in complicated layouts.A well-designed tone control, on the other hand, can be used to adjust the sound without huge adverse effects. This is one reason why active crossovers have an advantage over passive crossovers in sound quality. Another reason is that tone controls enable a person to adjust the sound of various recordings to suit their taste, and to compensate for recorded sound quality flaws, as well as to compensate for loudspeaker flaws.
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
Edits: 09/30/24
This is one reason why active crossovers have an advantage over passive crossovers in sound quality.
you avoid using eleven mediocre dual op amps in the signal path per speaker! ;)
64-channel "tone control" at our church used to EQ and mix each band instrument and vocalist individually with final global EQ out to streaming platforms (YouTube, Facebook Live). Sounds great! I'm not on the audio board. I do mostly ProPresenter (middle seat) or live cameras.
Yamaha QL5 64-ch mixing console / EQ
A couple vocalists are "auto-tuned" with another piece of software.
Edits: 09/30/24
Very nice! Abe.
if were to do over I would not change a thing.
Education costs!
That's very good thinking.
J.
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