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In Reply to: RE: Cassettes generally have considerably better dynamic range than either LP or CD. Nt posted by geoffkait on April 22, 2021 at 12:46:28
From the Dolby Wiki page:
"With a good quality tape, the Dolby-C response could be flat to 20 kHz at the 0 dB recording level, a previously unattainable result. An A-weighted signal-to-noise ratio of 72 dB (re 3% THD at 400 Hz) with no unwanted "breathing" effects, even on difficult-to-record passages, was possible."
Good recordings on vinyl are typically 60 to 70dB.
CDs have a dynamic range of 96dB.
From Reference Recordings:
"The SACD format is capable of delivering a dynamic range of 120dB from 20Hz to 20kHz and an extended frequency response up to 100kHz, although most currently available players list an upper limit of 70—90kHz, and practical limits reduce this to 50kHz."
I had a Nak ZX7 and a Eumig Metropolitan CCD when cassettes were popular. Great decks and they made excellent recordings from vinyl and then CDs. Prerecorded tapes were crap sounding regardless of the deck they were played on.
A better hypothetical dynamic range using the best quality microphones and associated gear at a live performance may have been possible but that was not the intended use for consumer cassettes. They were / are limited to the dynamic range of the tape and source signal. Saying that cassettes have a greater dynamic range seems like an irrelevant concept when considered from a practical standpoint.
Follow Ups:
Dynamic range is kind of a deceiving spec..... Sure CD has a dynamic range of 96dB, which has to do with the dB reference from the 16 bits turned off to the bits all turned on...... Analog dynamic range is often referenced to the noise floor, with no consideration of the signal being audible *below* the noise floor.... Vinyl's dynamic range is often understated for that reason.....
Cassettes have a noise floor as well and use Dolby C (or other noise reduction variants) to improve S/N ratio and dynamic range.... But unlike vinyl mastered off a good 15 or 30 ips open reel mastering machine, the Dolby tracking on cassettes just isn't linear by comparison, the signal at lower levels just doesn't track well with what it was on a good analog master tape..... So I would disagree that dynamic range of cassette tape (especially when using non-metal formulations) is superior to that of LP or CD. The dynamic gradations below the noise floor of a good open reel master just cannot be captured and preserved on cassette tape.
The trouble with your analysis like many such analyses is that the 90 dB spec that has been touted for CDs ever since they were introduced 40 years ago is that the spec is theoretical. In practice the actual dynamic range is much less.It's like a company claiming its sports car can do 150 miles an hour but where you live the roads are all curves so if you try to drive over 55 you'll go off the road like Tiger.
Much much less in many cases due to the Loudness Wars that involves overly aggressive dynamic range compression. Haven't you been paying attention? The perceived dynamic range of many cassettes is consequently greater than the DR perceived on many CDs.
Dynamic Range Database (read 'em and weep)
Edits: 04/25/21 04/25/21
You are saying that there is only like say 10-15db difference between the sound of a needle scraping and a loud passage? Just about everything that is said about the subject is complete bs?
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
Are you drunk whilst posting? I never said or implied any such thing.
Edits: 04/28/21
"irrelevant concept" Kyle? Can't really argue with that but I would also add erroneous concept. Not to be unexpected, considering the source.
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
With the exception of a few, Dolby-encoded Classical music cassettes.
Dmitri Shostakovich
Nt
CDs have a dynamic range of 90 dB? That's so funny! You believed the marketing hype, that's all. And you probably didn't get the memo on aggressive CD dynamic range compression that's been going on for more than 20;years.
Edits: 04/23/21
...to what record companies actually do to their recordings. The loudness wars syndrome was an intentionally induced recording effect that was chosen for faddish marketing reasons. It was not an inherent byproduct of the digital audio recording format.
I never said it was. The end result however it happens is overly compressed dynamic range. Cassettes don't have that problem since they predate Loudness Wars. Follow? .
When confronted with the measured science of 26db superior of CD over cassette tape you deflect with "marketing hype"
Not certain if that is a dictionary definition of ironic or pathetic
Obviously you never got the memo on the Loudness Wars, dude. CDs are waaay overly compressed. Many are flat line, I.e., almost zero dB dynamic range. So are hi res downloads. There is no escape.
1. I'm Canadian and that's what we do regardless of the situation.
2. I didn't realize that you were a manufacturer which, to me, implies a great depth of knowledge of things us regular folks wouldn't understand. Well, that's not entirely true. I didn't realize you were from MACHINA DYNAMICA and because of that, you are entitled to any flaky ideas you like. The dissemination of pseudo-science and the sale of high dollar, low return knick knacks allows you to have the last word on anything that can't be proven or repeated.
Once again, my sincere apologies.
Are all Canadians so rude? And dense.
There's nothing rude or even offensive about mentioning the antics of an obvious charlatan. If you could explain how a phone call to a mark or customer with a series of clicks could change how their audio system sounds is possible, I will retract my statements. Or try an easier one, like the super stiff springs. These are available at any hardware vendor for about a buck or from you for $13. How about a 4" x 6" x 1/8" piece of cork for $20. Once again, available anywhere for less than $100 for a 48" x 96" roll. Any of these explained would be a real show stopper fop me. This of course would depend on you using a real explanation using real and repeatable methods. I mention prices but I'm not talking about dollar value so much as the pretense that it actually does what you say.
Shady Lane has 31 entries commenting on your products. If you could repudiate them you would. You challenge anyone that disagrees with you regardless of how ridiculous your claims are and use pointless insults instead of showing the world why your products and observations work or are even worthwhile.
As it stands, I am neither rude nor dense, just a casual observer of a carpetbagger that preys on those less able to know when they've been scammed. I liken this to those with investment programs that they say will turn people with limited funds into overnight millionaires. It just ain't gonna happen. It will, however, help the scammer retire early and wealthy while lightening the pocketbooks of the easily persuaded.
Correct me with facts or STFU.
Mr. Geoffkait is a well known Troll here and on Audiogon. Just ignore him.
Very appropriate moniker, mossback. Hahaha!
I know but he still pisses me off.
I enjoy getting the better of people. Is that so wrong?
'getting the better of people'
you're not very good at it
how is being ridiculed getting the better of anyone?
you drag your own reputation face first through the mud
then claim some sort of 'victory'
just because you managed to avoid getting any packed up your nose
that is mud correct?
ah well, carry on ... as you do
be well,
Galileo was ridiculed. Einstein was ridiculed. P.T. Barnum was ridiculed. Christ was ridiculed. Colonel Sanders was ridiculed. It comes with the territory. Carry on, weenie, as you always do.
Edits: 04/24/21 04/24/21
You forgot Aristarchus of Samos, Galileo was placed under house arrest, christ never existed and if you take the el out of the Colonel what do you get. geoff?
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
You're one sick little monkey.
I need the teleportation cure!
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
If you poke it in the eye enough times it's a hornet's nest of activity.
in your townhouse in front of your computer with your stirring stick stirring the pot aren't you?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Nt
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Nice to smell you again. They're coming out of the woodwork. Yikes!
As with most your posts that memo title is confirmed
Suggest you stick with " quantum singularity " type statements and not easily measured things like a medias "dynamic range"
Hype not science is your strong suit.
You mean hyped up Ed?
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
The ones that got left behind. Ha ha
Compression is applied, it doesn't mean the format isn't capable of greater dynamic range.
I had a reel to reel with a built in compressor. Many cassette decks have a limiter which is a compressor by a more acceptable name. I have a Tascam CD recorder that has red book specs. It produces the full dynamic range of the recordings I make with it and they are much wider range than any LP or cassette. Compare noise floor to max volume and the 96dB spec is close. Probably more like 90dB on that machine.
Records, CDs, cassettes, SD cards, etc, all can have compression applied to the recording which reduces the dynamic range. This is what the loudness wars are all about.
Maybe you didn't get the memo.
While I agree with everything else you said a limiter is NOT a compressor by a more acceptable name.
A limiter is a compressor used at it's most brutal setting ie the maximum possible compression ratio.
A compressor lowers the peaks and raises the quieter parts.
A limiter just lowers the peaks.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Not necessarily. If you adjust the record level so that it's correct for an entire performance except the cannons going off near the end, they will be the only part compressed. The rest of the recording will be fine.
Most of the factory cassettes I owned decades ago were awful.
Best? TDK SA-X blanks and a decent CD player. At the dawn of the CD age? This would be about '83 or so, I made a few tapes and people were out snapping up CD players.....It was THAT MUCH better than anything they'd ever heard, especially on tape.
Neighbor kid had 600$ or 700$ in car stereo which was blown away by my awful and stock system in my Honda Accord....when playing one of my tapes.
Too much is never enough
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