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Problem every time I try some serious listening of Classical music. I do not know why the volume goes up so drastically all of a sudden which makes me jump up to turn the volume down. This caused the soft passages to be inaudible a little later. Terrible WAF ensues on this up and down circus. I wonder if there is an accessory which would flatten the dynamic range. I also wonder why the great composers go haywire and even fire a cannon in the middle of a music session. Crazy.
Bill
Follow Ups:
Nt
. . . complaining about what they consider an over-wide dynamic range on some classical recordings, especially on the BIS label. Frankly, I'd would NOT be a happy camper if BIS (and other companies) started compressing the dynamic range of their recordings.
I don't think dynamic range in classical recordings has been improving..... There is so much processing being applied to recent releases, I cannot even get a handle on how good the performance actually was.....This is why I rarely post reviews on new classical releases.... Too often I'm listening to the processing instead of the performance. I cannot count the number of recordings where I hear either a "squelch effect" during quiet passages or "noise pumping" with dynamic changes..... Not to mention a "synthetic grunge" on strings, winds, and brass.
A prime example of this is the recent Wagner Ring Highlights CD with Paavo Jarvi and NHK Symphony (RCA/Sony) ..... The recording sounded "synthesized," it made me pull out the old Szell/Cleveland Ring Highlights, in which the sound quality wasn't great, but at least wasn't overprocessed.
Edits: 03/28/21
Yes but it is what I have come to expect from this source.
I think they were already distorted before the recording was assembled. I just played a choral orchestral piece with beautiful orchestra and soloist, but then the chorus kicks in and it's completely distorted.
Sometimes the quiet solo instruments are not prominent enough and then the full orchestra overloads the mics, so that neither low nor loud passages are enjoyable.
She had a surprised look when I told the wife to go for a leisurely shopping to Bloomingdales instead of Macys. I started listening to Mahler 9, a recent gift from a nephew. Wow, I was frightened at the prospect of the lady upstairs complaining to the Committee and all. Quickly changed to the CD Music For A Glass Bead Game (JMR 15) that was gifted by an affectionate inmate Vicar of Wakefield who is also an organist. That music was calming, Bach and Handel especially. I must thank that friend here now.
I must seriously consider using headphones even though my favorite music like Mozart K165 and Operas by Callas are within allowable limits. I did enjoy some Mahler , the 4th movement of Symphony 5 before the Perry Como lover of the last 55 years returned after shopping.
Cheers
Bill
In a decently set up system that recording sounds palpably palpable.
carefully put together by our own John Marks.
Cheers
Bill
Really? Had no idea.
I need to read the credits. John's Arturo Delmoni LPs are BIG favorites of mine. No wonder I liked that Glass Bead disc.
Agree. It's a very nice collection of classical music.
For a real kick, maybe Bill's Mrs. should read "The Glass Bead Game (Magister Ludi)".
Although not my favorite of Hesse's books, many consider it his masterpiece.
My wife has read Siddharta and liked it. She has seen the movie too. The Glass Bead Story sounds pretty philosophical and hard to digest. Would ask our daughter who is the Professor in the family to interpret.
Meanwhile I will play some Perry Como for her in return for cooking Beef Vindaloo for the last 55 years!
Regards
Bill
And don't forget the hug.
For me it's a toss up between Sidhartha and Steppenwolf.
'I must seriously consider using headphones'
*ahem* ... *cough* ... *hmm*
I've heard that somewhere before, sounds familiar ...
with regards,
I should have known. Audiophiles have tremendous memory.
Three downsides to headphones. First is WAF again with my not hearing what she is saying. Second is my dislike of listening to music all by myself and not sharing with someone. Considers it selfish.Third is not listening to the pair of speakers chosen after several nervous breakdowns. If I can listen to the tiny thing and enjoy it, I may as well listen to tiny Bose speakers.
Regards
Bill
wives love headphones get her some too, you need 'me' time just as she needs 'her' time and it's not selfish for either one of you, in fact it really should be required ... finally, just don't get Bose headphones ... the end
regards,
I appreciate the lack of compression in most classical recordings. And varying loudness for dramatic effect, to a point. But I personally don't see the artistic merit of blowing people out of their seats with large dynamic swings, especially when they are sudden. It's a turn-off for me, so I don't enjoy the symphonies from romantic composers as much as other classical works.
I also understand the WAF problem. I cannot play a recording of a full orchestra at concert volumes when my wife or kids are around. So introducing my kids to a piece like Also Sprach Zarathustra or Beethoven's 9th requires riding the volume control.
I'm lazy, I'll link you to the story..... But very related to the topic here.......
"But I personally don't see the artistic merit of blowing people out of their seats with large dynamic swings, especially when they are sudden."
I guess you won't like the ending of Mahler's 6th Symphony.... ... ........
I tend to prefer baroque and classical period. Bach is my favorite composer. And I generally enjoy smaller, more intimate performances than big bombastic ones. I live near Boston, so I like seeing the Boston Baroque in Jordan Hall more than the BSO at Symphony Hall.
That doesn't mean I don't enjoy a full symphony orchestra sometimes, but I keep hoping they'll play Beethoven's 6th instead of the 5th and 9th all the time.
you've never attended a live symphonic performance of a work with wide dynamic range. As others have observed, that is where the emotion of music lies.
Calls to mind one performance of Orff's Carmina Burana when I was seated in row C. The explosive parts raised the hairs on my arms!
Dynamics is one of the important characteristics of classical music. I recall an early RCA Dynagroove version of Bolero that messed with the increasing loudness of the piece and it wasn't the same music. Take away the dynamics of a classical piece or even compress it at all noticeably and you've rewritten it and not for the better.
Headphones.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Compressor! Lots of choices out there...mostly pro. OTOH, compression is something most audiophiles attempt to consciously avoid but may appreciate when it's inherent in the characteristics of say an SET amp.
Back in those daze they called the 70s, I used a DBX 1BX to limit and/or/or and expand the output, and a few other tweaks, to my Marantz 1150D. I loved it. It worked very well.
For only having two buttons and a dial, it did a lot for my system for several years.
Your interest may vary but the results are the same (Byrd 2020)
I can't compete with the dead. (Buck W. 2010)
Cowards can't be heroes. (Byrd 2017)
Sounds like you have background distractions making you try to listen to the quiet passages over...... I've found that unlike listening to other kinds of music, classical requires a quiet background and undivided attention, so the quiet passages can be heard clearly...... If you have kids, this could be impossible........
If your wife doesn't like you ignoring her during "serious" listening, maybe the classical music isn't compatible with your wife..... It's no different from being glued to a football game on TV..........
It sounds like you've never been to a live classical concert. If so, you'd know that much classical music is very loud in places and equally very quiet at others - even in the same movement of the same piece.
Suggest you treat your good lady to the best seats at a live concert when halls reopen and use your phone's SPL meter to measure the loudest and quietest sections. You'll probably find a BIGGER difference at a live concert than the recording you listen to at home - although audience coughing, etc can add to the sound readings of the quiet sections.
OK, don't take your SPL meter - just go to enjoy the music and the next day you'll appreciate the music at home more than you do now.
I wonder if either ambient noise or hearing loss is the real problem here.
If you have to turn up the volume so loud in order to hear the quiter passages, that it hurts you ears on the loud passages, it might be because you are in a bad environment (ambient noise level) for hearing quiet passages, or your hearing is a problem with the quiet passages (tinnitus, etc).
Something to consider?
If art interprets our dreams, the computer executes them in the guise of programs!
or well-recorded jazz for that matter--will often subject your ears to wide dynamic swings (assuming the equipment you're listening with is up to the task). The transition from ppp to fff and vice versa, as well as any gradation in between, is part and parcel of a composer's/performer's intent in conveying what he/she wishes to communicate. Neither genre is intended for background or casual listening (what American composer William Schuman termed "soundbathing"). Hence the limited use (if any) of compression on such recordings.
Recording levels vary, sometimes widely, so this might require some effort, but you might try playing with your volume control settings with the recordings you listen to to see if you can find a happy medium that preserves the audibility of low-level-passages while retaining a reasonable sense of the "punch" of a sudden level spike. Might be worth the effort in terms of dealing with the WAF reaction.
Jim
Actually, this is done a LOT on recordings of concerti for solo instrument plus orchestra. And it arguably better suits the composer's intent to have the soloist stand out from the accompaniment.
I have a box set of all Paganini's violin concerti, and the solo fiddle is mixed very much front and center, even in the loud tutti passages. To me, it sounds right there, although in an unamplified live performance it would be somewhat more swallowed in the mix.
Most concerto recordings have the soloist "accentuated" relative to the orchestra.... It never sounds that way live (especially with violin concertos), unless you're seated in the first three rows with the soloist directly in front of you.At a live concert, the violin utilized by the solo performer in a concerto sounds no different from the individual violins in the orchestra..... Most likely, the soloist is playing "louder" than the orchestral performers, to attain a sense of balance.... Recordings lose a lot of low level resolution, hence the soloist is often individually mic'ed so he/she can be heard more easily in the mix.
Edits: 03/25/21
If you go to a live classical concert (One day god willing we will go again) and here for exaample a Violin or Cello Concerto in the hall when you are listening subjectivly the soloist does sound as clear and loud as the full orchestra. They don't mic at all, what you see is what you get. But when the full orchestra comes back in because you have tuned in to the level of the soloist it seems loud and thrilling. All part of the joy of the concert.
A full orchestra at full pelt is a magnificent thing to listen too, for example the last movement of Beethovens Ninth always makes me think of running flat out downhill to a finish line.
I had a few RCA's that sounded like they stuck a microphone close in front of the soloist and turned the gain way up on that mic.
Agreed that when done right, you can capture both the soloist and the orchestra with their proper balances intact.
The old Mercury Living Presence recordings (and other recordings from the "golden age of stereo") were made that way. And, except for one recording, Mercury used only three microphones for their whole classical stereo catalog. The projection of the soloist all depends on where you're sitting (at the concert) or, on a recording, where the microphones are placed. (Of course, you do have to get the microphones exactly in the right place!) In any case, it shouldn't require any special mixing on the engineer's part other than to set the placement and levels of the microphones to begin with - although, in practice (and unfortunately IMHO), companies have moved away from simple microphone techniques (and towards active mixing) over time. And even the Mercury folks had to mix their center channel pick-up into the final L and R channels too (except on the MCH SACD reissues, where you can adjust the level of that discrete center channel into the total sound picture yourself if you don't like the way they did it! Power to the People! Want the soloist to stand out even more? Raise the level of that center channel! - Done!).
"The old Mercury Living Presence recordings (and other recordings from the 'golden age of stereo') were made that way. And, except for one recording, Mercury used only three microphones for their whole classical stereo catalog."
Telarc did the exact same thing with its orchestral recordings..... With the Soundstream digital recording system based LPs. Such recording techniques were no longer disclosed when albums started being released with the masters no longer from the 50 kHz sample rate Soundstream system, and the 44.1 kHz Redbook standard took over. (I first noticed the sample rate change with the Dohnanyi/Cleveland Beethoven "Eroica" Symphony LP.... The loss of "image specificity" was very apparent. It didn't have the resolution of past Telarc digitally mastered LPs..... In retrospect, it was an introduction for me to how most orchestral CDs would sound like.)
. . . where they abandoned their 3-microphone purist technique. By the time they recorded the Berlioz Requiem in Atlanta with Spano, they were using 32 microphones! (Their earlier recording of that work in Atlanta with Shaw sounds quite a bit better to me - but it's only 2Ch.)
As for the sample rate, I know you've posted before about your preference for the Soundstream 50 kHz sample rate vs. the CD sample rate of 44.1 kHz. But at the same time, you've expressed skepticism about higher sample rates, such as 24/96 and above. (Do I have that right?) If that's true, then where is the dividing line for you as far as the optimum sample rate on a PCM digital recording is concerned? As for me, I'm plenty happy with 24/96, but OTOH, some of the best recordings I know of (such as the Jansons Mahler 7 with the Concertgebouw Orchestra, or Gatti's recording of the Bruckner 9 with the same orchestra) are in my library in their 24/352.8 (DXD) download incarnations - the exact resolution of the master, and they're among the absolute best recordings I've ever heard. (Of course, the Amsterdam Concertgebouw venue itself helps in this regard!)
I guess someone might be diligent enough to find out when Telarc got rid of the "three mic" recording technique or switched to 44.1 kHz mastered LPs..... Mind you, at the time, nobody really questioned the lower sample rate..... (I just noticed that the later vinyl releases just lost resolution.... I wasn't even aware of the change initially.) It took about five to ten years to realize it may have not quite passed "audiophile" muster, while consumers were becoming aware of the digital format's shortcomings."As for the sample rate, I know you've posted before about your preference for the Soundstream 50 kHz sample rate vs. the CD sample rate of 44.1 kHz. But at the same time, you've expressed skepticism about higher sample rates, such as 24/96 and above. (Do I have that right?)"
Exactly.... The 50 kHz rate I've only heard on vinyl.... There was no active digital processing going on, so no RFI was being generated..... The same would hold true listening to vinyl mastered at 24/96 and above.....
My disdain for 24/96 and higher rates lies purely with *active* digital audio playback, where the processor is crunching data in real time..... This generates RFI that's several times greater than CD playback.... I've found that taming the RFI-induced sonic artifacts with CD playback, while extremely difficult, is still possible..... I cannot say the same for playing high-resolution digital formats.
"If that's true, then where is the dividing line for you as far as the optimum sample rate on a PCM digital recording is concerned?"
I think had CDs used the same rate as the old 50 kHz Soundstream format, digital audio may have taken a totally different course, and may not have even gone to higher resolution options...... I thought the only refinement needed would have been better filtering, and that's it......
On the flip side, had the CD used the 50 kHz sample rate, vinyl may have gone the way of the 8-track tape........ The 44.1 kHz rate created a "resolution" conundrum that ended up sparing vinyl as a viable consumer and audiophile music playback format. There weren't enough really satisfying CD playback systems to sway the loyal vinyl enthusiasts to the CD format... Getting the top octave right with the 44.1 kHz rate has been sort of a black art in itself, too many CD players just weren't listenable enough to make audiophiles abandon vinyl. (I almost gave up on CD personally.) The higher resolution formats were supposed to solve the "top octave" problem, but they turned out to be even less listenable than CD. (If high-rez digital formats were listenable, that's all we would be talking about now.)
And conversely, I think MP3 became popular simply because it was more listenable than CD and higher resolution formats, due to less RFI generated.... The loss of resolution notwithstanding. (I ran a test here a while back on AA, most people preferred a 320kbps MP3 converted track over the native 44.1 kHz track with the same musical passage.)
"As for me, I'm plenty happy with 24/96, but OTOH, some of the best recordings I know of (such as the Jansons Mahler 7 with the Concertgebouw Orchestra, or Gatti's recording of the Bruckner 9 with the same orchestra) are in my library in their 24/352.8 (DXD) download incarnations - the exact resolution of the master, and they're among the absolute best recordings I've ever heard. (Of course, the Amsterdam Concertgebouw venue itself helps in this regard!)"
I've not heard one bad comment about the Concertgebouw.... Back when I attended Cleveland Orchestra concerts at Severance Hall during the early 1980s, I would often talk to the musicians as they were warming up..... They all raved about the Concertgebouw, not only being great acoustically for the patrons, but for the musicians as well.
As for the resolution and sample rates, I do hear loss of resolution in CD relative to vinyl, and it probably exists relative to 24/96 or higher..... If I were to come across a playback system that doesn't make my ears bleed while listening to active high-resolution digital formats, I'd trumpet its praises all over Audio Asylum.
Edits: 03/25/21 03/25/21
I don't agree with some (or maybe even most) of what you mentioned, but I do give you credit for consistency with your previous posts! ;-)
as loud as is comfortable for you and sounds good.
Then, That's IT!
Maybe improvement in Amp or speakers, and/or room are needed.
Classical recordings tend not to suffer as much from introduced "dynamic compression", like so many pop music recordings do.
Pop music recordings have to sound intelligible in casual meeting places. That typically means noisy environments like cars, supermarkets, etc... Good classical recordings are almost never very suitable for playback in noisy environments like cars but instead lend themselves to "serious listening" - and that typically means playback in relatively quiet environments like audiophile listening rooms.
One of the major things that keeps some of us from ditching our two-channel systems for technically superior multi-channel systems is the lack of good multi-channel recordings outside of the classical music spectrum. Unless you like classical music above all other types, a multi-channel system probably isn't worth the extra money, space, and effort required to set one up.
too?
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
A problem with a good deal of popular music, especially that recorded on CDs, is that it is highly compressed. Most likely this is because a large population of "non-audiophiles" listen in their cars and without compression the soft passages would be inaudible because of road noise.
The beauty of classical music recordings is that compression is not as severe and hence the wide swings of dynamic range. The lack of compression may be why many of us prefer LPs over CDs (may they rest in peace).
I married the perfect woman - the downside is that everything that goes wrong is my fault.
"Most likely this is because a large population of "non-audiophiles" listen in their cars and without compression the soft passages would be inaudible because of road noise."
Be careful, Officer Story will be along to beat you about the brow.......
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
.....you are asking for "less" resolution and dynamic range, which is the forte of classical music. But you want it to sound like mass produced pop which is engineered for car playback?
I think a Wave Radio should be in your future.
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Sapiens, My Ass
The story goes that in pre-Independence Ireland, the Irish "straw boss" of a road crew approached the British Foreman, tugged his forelock, and said,
"Sar--the men, the men do not have enough shovels. We do not have enough shovels, so that every man has his own shovel."
To which the foreman replied,
"I am sorry. There is nothing I can do about it. Please tell your men that that they will simply have to lean on each other."
# # #
jm
no it's not. The massive dynamics of drums, vocals, and other 'rock&pop' style instruments make it necessary for limiting the dynamic range to integrate into a mix. Distortion from a full tilt Marshall amp has about 5db dynamics. That's a fact.
If he wants what they call leveling, his post is open to constructive suggestions. I hate it when a classical only lover whines about these things like 'car playback'. I play and have taught all types of music and instruments.
Ptolomy Almagest
Bill the K should use a parametric EQ to flatten the response
most listeners might object to squished dynamics, but 'horses for courses'
the link goes to a cheapie that's programmable for either home or AUTO use
it appears to be rather sophisticated for what it is, no Shitt!
Bill sure manages to come up with rather esoteric audio 'problems' eh?
regards,
it's at least something to consider for the price with lots of options too. Classical can be a tough nut if you're not in a quiet environment and you adjust the beginning of a piece that's very soft ppp as one of us here said, and then......
If you need studio quality there are better for not much more.
Ptolomy Almagest
"The massive dynamics of drums, vocals, and other 'rock&pop' style instruments make it necessary for limiting the dynamic range to integrate into a mix."
Why would you have to limit the dynamic RANGE? Why not just set the dynamic LEVEL lower to begin with? Then you could still capture the full dynamic RANGE of the performance which the musicians themselves actually create, rather than having to adjust it in the control room.
Hate all you like. I'm not a "classical only lover" and I'm certainly not whining.
Mainstream Pop music is highly compressed and it doesn't have to be. I have several examples of rock and pop recordings that part with the norm and sound excellent. What I'm pointing to is what you hear (and what passes for music) on "pop" radio today. It's crap and the recording quality suits it. If that's what he's looking for it's a good way to ruin dynamic music.
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
and it certainly sounded like you were whining.
give us some indication of your DIRECT experience with studio techniques and we can talk, but please don't copy and paste something off the web.
I used the extreme example of the art of recording a band like VHalen with his Marshall amps, you know, the ones that Hendrix made famous. Other bands can be entirely different. I have a 'Blue Murder' disk that slips to near zero here and there and the vinyl still captures it well. Pink Floyd's The Wall is extremely dynamic for POP. It's a multi gold album despite Roger's anti semitism. And I really like 'It's a Beautiful Day', they have everything in the mix and it's done so fantastically.
If you are referring to Britney Spears POP, that is mostly electronic and I understand that.
POP is 'popular' stuff and hopefully not the wasteful dustbin dreck. Van Halen was popular, so was Sinatra & Bernstein
Ptolomy Almagest
I think you are right. Some recording engineers put too much dynamic range on their classical recordings and you may have to sit there with a volume control making adjustments. The idea of "no intervention" has been a boast of BIS records, for example. But the idea of a full symphonic orchestra's dynamic range in most domestic environments is a bit ridiculous IMO.
I mention BIS because I think they are the worst in this regard and have boasted about their dynamic range. Even some reviewers have taken them to task for this.
A lot of classical music seems to go from the quiestest of quiet passages to a thunderous roar I think if you flatten that out it won't be as the composer intended and the emotional impact might be diminished.Maybe try some headphones?
"Man, that mouse is Awesome." - Kaemon (referring to Jerry, of Tom and Jerry fame)
Edits: 03/24/21
but if your looking for a studio quality leveling or compression device to add to your stereo you can at least look at the company Aphex. I've used their 'Dominator' and Compellor' devices in studios and they are high quality, link below
Ptolomy Almagest
...eegads, don't level out everything. If you are hearing distortion with loud passages, find where its coming from and fix it. Proper dynamics are an integral part of the emotional involvement
nt
I get a little annoyed when a single violin is as loud as the whole orchestra on some recordings I've heard in the past.
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