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Over the past several years, I've noticed an effect from listening to certain audio systems, tube combinations, and gear combinations..... After the music stops, I often notice "high frequency ringing" inside my head... (Similar to a high-pitched "heterodyne" tone heard on an AM radio or a "flyback transformer" on an old style CRT TV/monitor.) A "temporary tinnitus," if you will.... And it lingers on for several minutes afterwards.....
I've sometimes noticed it in just my left or right side, suggesting that the effect was present in one but not both channels (occurs primarily with tubes). This is directly related to my aversion to any digital audio playback that uses asynchronous sample-rate conversion or resolutions of at least 24/96, in which this effect is severely intensified. I've also noticed this effect more readily when listening to headphones than when listening to loudspeakers.
I do "tweaking" to the audio systems, and have noticed that the effect seems to vary with tubes used, gear used, and sometimes the recordings played....
Just recently, I tried a new driver tube (new production Telefunken E88CC-TK) in my 8417 amplifier, and noticed a distinctive absence of this effect..... And also noticed low level information in recordings as a result, especially late in tracks..... This absence of the effect caught my attention, the music became a lot more vivid and enjoyable. (I had a friend over at the house yesterday, he seemed to notice the difference as well. It does not mean this particular driver tube would do similar magic in a different amplifier/system.)
In retrospect, after trying a lot of combinations that I thought sounded "right" but had excessive "tinnitus effect" (and kind of tolerated it), I've come to the realization that the loss of satisfaction in sound reproduction isn't always what is heard during playback, but what is noticed afterwards.
I also wouldn't discount the notion that some people may not experience this effect to any significant degree.... And some may not experience this at all. (Could explain why some people enjoy high-resolution digital audio a lot more than others.) And yet others may experience this effect more severely than me.......
I don't think this effect is more severe with tubes or solid state.... I do think it is more common in digital audio than in analog (especially at resolutions greater than Redbook CD), but I've noticed this effect after playing vinyl on occasion.
I think it could have something to do with "parasitic oscillation," but I'm not sure..... I think RFI is also a culprit in the digital realm (could be intermodulating with the music and/or inducing parasitic oscillation). But for those who may have experienced this effect, especially if you can find ways to ameliorate it, addressing and fixing this issue could make a real impact on the overall satisfaction and enjoyment in playback of your favorite music.
Follow Ups:
I feel your pain. It's a battle I'm fighting as well.
Only in my case, it's a combination of 45 or 50 years of motorcycles and open-cockpit airplanes along with the after-effects of a severe case of Labrynthitis which I suffered for 4 years back in the late '90's.
All together......I've not heard compleat silence in nearly three decades.
....sT
yep. I try to remember I am one of the lucky ones even with all the aging issues. So many friends gone now, that have no problems with hearing - or anything else...
. I judge any sound system by how tiring it is to listen to.
Linkwitz
Built a screened porch on the back of the house that summer. Had a circular saw in hand for many days without hearing protection. Sure wish I could go back and do THAT over again...
I remember hearing a circular saw as a child, someone did a woodworking project in the house..... I couldn't get over how loud that thing was....... (I did put my fingers in my ears.)
I've heard people talk about attending auto race events, telling me the race cars were "insanely loud".........
As you continue to try different combinations, would be interesting to see if there is any correlation to microphonics.
Not just the signal tubes, but even headphone cables can mechanically heighten unwanted oscillations. And microphony can vary from tube to tube, even within the same brand. Just a thought.
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
The hobby of high-end audio can literally drive someone insane..... [-;
LOL! No kidding eh! Did I mention to check capacitor vibrations and damping too? Sigh... can we sue someone over this hobby?
Cheers!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
I remember reading, roughly 25 years ago, about an "audiophile soldering iron"..... Which supposedly had greatly reduced internal vibrations and magnetic fields, which would in turn enable soldering joints that had cleaner conductivity than what would occur with conventional soldering irons..... I was gullible enough to inquire about attaining one of these things, and got an email about a month later stating it was a spoof.........
Cripes! I was about to Google that soldering iron until I read the end of your post.
So that makes two of us!
Cheers!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
it actually looks far more like an avocation than hobby ... maybe a combo?
My father and I were sitting on the porch of my house one summer evening about 20 years ago and I mentioned that the cicadas were really loud that night. He said that he thought it was his tinnitus because it always sounded like that.
Something to look forward to!
I recall being in a computer lab, back when CRT monitors were being used..... One of the monitors' flyback transformers malfunctioned, emitting a loud "squeal," but I didn't know which monitor it was..... But it was so loud, I had to bolt out of the lab..... The lab technician later told me he never noticed it. He said someone else heard the "squeal," and he had to turn off monitors, one at a time, just to find out which one was the culprit.
2021 is the year for a major 17 year cicada appearance. Perhaps there is an upside to that in that it will mask my tinnitus for a while.
I dream of an America where a chicken can cross the road without having it's motives questioned.
I've been experiencing ear ringing for about tens years. It just showed up one day. I thought it was coming from my speakers...but when I hit the mute....I found it was me.
I've learned that if I don't subject myself to a constant noise for the first 20-30 minutes of the day. I'm (often) ring free for the day. So in the morning there's no running water (shower), and no using the space heater with a fan, no music, no PC audio. Those are known triggers in the morning.
When I am ring free for the day....I let the music loose in the evening. I can listen to electrostatics for hours, and at some high levels. Next day....no ringing. Works for me.
If the ringing is with me for the day, I try to focus on the voices in my head. That helps.
In the end, knowing the trigger(s) is very valuable.
Your interest may vary but the results are the same (Byrd 2020)
I can't compete with the dead. (Buck W. 2010)
Cowards can't be heroes. (Byrd 2017)
Hi, Todd,
I've dealt with tinnitus for years and I'm experiencing age-related hearing decline so I try to better protect my hearing nowadays. I use a SPL meter to monitor how loudly I'm playing the stereo. I try to keep vocals in the 60dB to 70dB range with up to 75dB peaks for louder vocal passages. If I pay attention to the vocals the rest of the music seems to stay below 80dB to 85dB, though I try to avoid having peaks above 80dB if I can help it. This is sitting ~9'-10' feet from the speakers.
I was using an Extech SPL monitor for years and really liked it because it had an AC power adapter and included an analog style display bar that made it easy to see what the levels were at a glance. But it recently died so I bought a Reed SPL meter (link below) that can run on a rechargeable 9v battery. It has a low range setting (30dB to 90dB) that nicely displays SPL levels on an analog style bar graph. I use the FAST, C-weighted setting with max level hold. It's not cheap but my hearing has become more precious to me as I get older and I'm wanting to be able to listen to the stereo for a few more years. :-)
Tom
I am now running 6922 driver tubes in the Bogen MO100 monos of the main system (new production Mullard CV4004), which have a similar effect (noticed almost no ringing in my head after the music stopped) to the 12AX7s in the 8417 mono amps of the high-efficiency system..... Played CD at rock levels (Marilyn Manson) last night, the "temporary tinnitus" was kept to a minimum, in spite of the relatively loud volumes.......
I don't notice much variance with power tubes, the signal tubes seem to affect this greatly..... In some cases, different samples of the same tube yield varying results as well. (Although new production tubes were more consistent in this regard. Old stock tubes seem to vary here the most.) I would have to backtrack to find out whether certain digital sources or solid-state components affect this condition. I will also have to do this evaluation when I rotate different tube amplifiers in both systems.
I cannot speak for others, but the effect for me is quite profound..... The "post music silence" becomes a lot more pleasant..... (It's related to the "listenability" comments I've made over the years with various pieces of gear, but don't recall the "ringing/tinnitus effect," it may have been occurring but I didn't realize it at the time..... Aside from when I listened to D/A conversion with asynchronous conversion.) It was something I have not really paid much attention to (until recently), thinking it was mainly the digital source or the recording, rather than the gear and/or signal tubes. (The better performers might be filtering out RFI artifacts and/or have low "parasitic oscillation", but I won't speculate further.) It could be somewhat related to the "blacker background" comments we sometimes come across in reviews and equipment evaluations.
I've all but given up trying to figure out which sources or components lead to more noticeable tinnitus noise after a listening session. I will have to say that the one possible commonality is certain 16-44 releases from the 80's and 90's. Not all, but often enough to notice. With really well done releases, regardless of vintage, it's easier to crank up the volume a bit without side effects. Could be entirely psychological, though.
Hi Todd, I notice my ears ring with certain tubes, whether on hi res, regular DAC, or phono. The PSVANE Acme 2A3, in particular, I just can't listen to... I gave them a good 200-hour break in, at 4 hours at a time. Source in this particular case didn't make a difference, but I have a perforated ear drum, tinnitus, AND high blood pressure...
I can listen to old RCA 2A3 all day long with no ringing.
BG
I've noticed that the "tinnitus effect" is one characteristic that does NOT seem to be affected much by "break-in"..... It either has the problem or it doesn't (or somewhere in between), and it's apparent from the get-go.
'I gave them a good 200-hour break in'
ears? mine had 569.4K hours of break in and still with the tinnitus effect!
*F* me! I'll leave you guys alone now
Peace
The only clinical discussions we like to address here on AA relate to audio equipment. However, I will share that I hear a high pitch frequency in my ears that concerned me enough to be examined by an ENT. Ultimately, I was advised that normal aging frequently results in auditory nerve just "firing" which produces the high pitch feedback sound. Fortunately, it doesn't intrude on my life and I can ignore most of the time when I'm busy doing an activity.
Hearing any rhythmic sound or whooshing in your ears is called pulsatile tinnitus. It can be completely benign or the sign of a more serious underlying condition -- like an arteriovenous malformation (AVM).
When I go postal (sorry, any postal workers) it will be because of tinnitus.
I am fortunate......
Most of the bothersome tinnitus (while in bed) I had was earlier in life, which is kind of unusual that the problems subsided later in life.... Most people are fine in their younger years, the bothersome tinnitus sets in as they get older.
No Text
"the wild shirtless guitar of Mark Farner, the bong-rattling bass of Mel Schacher, the competent drum work of Don Brewer"
Homer Simpson
Nothing that I am proud of.
really? ... well I'm proud of you whether you hear it or not!
sorry ... I meant 'know it ' or not
I was at one of the LOUDEST places you can go visit. An AirShow. A jet flying by a thousand feet away doing 350 knots is LOUD. And the Harriers (years ago) were incredibly loud. I was even present when a CONCORDE did a flyby when an IDIOT ran out on the runway forcing the go-around.I was talking to a guy at a booth and he noted with a nod and a smile, my FITTED earplugs. We got to talkng about hearing.
Seems that a BUSHMAN in the Kalahari Desert has better hearing than most westerers HALF his age.
We live in a SEA of noise. Go someplace REAL quiet. the Desert, maybe, at 0400 before the days wind starts and people start moving around. Making noise. You'll be uncomfortable. I've even been in an anacoic (nearly) space where talking to someone was different. Standing back to back and trying to speak was nearly impossible. No distance / direction cues.
We had a major power fail here years ago. MAN, did it get quiet. NO cars. None of that 'background' noise we ignore. It was nice for a couple hours.Vision is similar. Want a treat? Go somewhere (probably in a CAVE) without light. Not a Photon. VERY odd.
Too much is never enough
Edits: 03/22/21
Tinnitus is a common symptom that it's elevated.
.
My blood pressure is typically 130/80, FWIW........
Once again, I only notice the "tinnitus" for about a 10-15 minute period after listening to some (but not all) combinations of tubes and equipment. Aside from that (and whenever I'm sick), it is not an issue with me.
Every time I listen to music too loudly for too long, I get residual tinnitus. The severity seems to be a function of loudness and duration.
It's not so much of a problem for home listening because I rarely play my system louder than about 85 dB average levels. But if I've been playing my system moderately loud for a couple of hours, I'll have some low level ringing immediately afterward that goes away in an hour or so.
I've also sat through one or two audio show demos that were loud enough to leave my ears ringing a little bit afterward for long enough to spoil the next couple of rooms.
For me, the system and the music selection play a role. Basically, anything that makes me feel some listening fatigue is more likely to have an after-effect. Especially speakers with horn loaded tweeters that are balanced a little too bright.
What really gets me is amplified live music. The last time I made the mistake of going to a pop concert without earplugs, I couldn't even hear the music properly because my ears were distorting. I had very loud tinnitus for 24 hours afterward and it took 2-3 days for my ears to return to normal. These days, I won't go to any amplified performance without bringing ear plugs just in case.
like I said, that's not an effect it IS tinnitus
everyone is familiar with the term and those who post here probably even more so with the particulars, but it's a common enough affliction that, especially if you have it, live with it, and grow accustomed to it, that it's worth taking the time for a review ... link goes to Mayo Clinic:
regards,
The FIRST big show I went to of Stereo / HiFi was up in Newpoer Beach. Several hundred rooms of sound!
One of the weird things I noted was the large number of Hearing Aids in evidence. Never made much sense
Too much is never enough
I'd skip earphones, myself.
Trust your ears.
If they aren't happy, STOP.
I'm thinking there's a very good chance Todd is describing tinnitus itself
everything in the post points there ... describes my symptoms to a 'T'
except in addition to on & off 'ringing' there's intermittent 'white noise'
I've been diagnosed and know what caused it: drum kits, guns, rock concerts
have you had this checked out Todd?
regards,
"I've been diagnosed and know what caused it: drum kits, guns, rock concerts"
These "temporary tinnitus" episodes after listening to music I remember when I first got into audio as a teenager...... I thought it was just a "natural response" to moderately loud sound. (Although I don't recall hearing this effect after a live orchestral concert.)
I did make a big mistake at a Rush concert back around the year 2000..... I was not aware of "concert ear plugs" at the time, I've worn them at every rock concert since that time..... Cannot say whether the few rock concerts I've experienced without ear plugs had a significant effect on my hearing. (My right ear has slight otosclerosis, a very mild loss my entire life. My left ear has always tested "normal".) I've shot guns, but always wore hearing protection.
The only time I experience "continuous" tinnitus is when I'm sick, and my ear canals are blocked...... And the one time I tried "ultrasonic pest repellers"..... Made me get rid of them.......
Aside from the "temporary tinnitus" episodes, which I notice after listening to audio or using a computer, it always subsides to near total silence in about 10 to 15 minutes..... I almost never notice any tinnitus when I go to sleep..... (I may have it, but the "volume" levels are very low.) I often get "spooked" by the slightest of sounds at night, not to mention noticing my breathing and "heart beat".......
ah ... that 'heart beat' thing can be a bit disconcerting if you're under stress, even low level, trying to drift off to sleep ... we learn to tune out familiar background noise but are attuned to our 'body sounds' at such a fundamental level variations really come to our attention unbidden
that's probably why, like a lot of people, I'm not very good at naps
even as a child when I probably really needed one they were a no go
When we were listening to music yesterday, we were playing it louder than usual...... We were listening predominantly to rock music, played Mouth Music, Beatles, Neil Young, and Thompson Twins........
Edits: 03/22/21
the time of day and age.
If a person were to just wake up and listen loud or run things like vacuum cleaners it's a bit of a shock to the ears. The ears have rested all night and need a bit of acclimation. I avoid my wife then because that's when she does all her vacuuming and I can't stand it. Also -
The decibel level is one thing but the elapsed time makes it worse. Long periods at anything over 90db is not so good and 90 is fairly loud. I don't know how people in machine shops and hot rod garages have any resemblance to hearing over years of 120db. The hearing clamps up so to speak. A few people have told me that their quiet vacation away from anything mankind has a noticeable improvement on their hearing.
I turn things up slowly as time goes on, it helps. I keep seeing law firm commercials suing ear plug makers because veterans have permanent damage now. I use the 30db ear muff kind for noisy crap and if it's real loud I use ear plugs also. Getting older sucks in this pleasurable pastime.
Ptolomy Almagest
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