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In Reply to: RE: How many LAYERS of TUBES do you really need? posted by Feanor on March 10, 2021 at 07:07:03
Need?Want?
No one "needs" tubes anywhere. People "want" tubes after they have auditioned SS. Since everyone under 50 largely grew up on Solid State amplification and became audiophiles and then auditioned the best "measuring" SS amplification they then elected to "want" tube amplifiers so that their music would actually sound good.
The above is a generalization but at the same time, there is a big dollop of fact in that the progression is "generally" (hence generalization) that people tend to go FROM Solid State TO Tube and then to SET. Interestingly also a progression from best measurements to worst measurements.
Anyhow - tubes don;t have one kind of sound. The variance in the sound of tube amplifiers is far larger than SS amplifiers.
Even tube amps using the same tubes at the same price sound a fair bit different. I remember auditioning two 15 EL34 amps - Jolida 302B and Antique Sound Labs AQ1003DT. Both in the same room, the same level matched volume on the same speakers - it was startling how different they were. The 302 was a stereotypically mushy warm thick tube sound and the ASL was more like a Classe SS amp. The difference was rather big. I could not say that about listening to integrated amps from Bryston, Sim Audio, and Rote the dealer had. All three SS amps were kind of meh so I thought "may as well buy "meh" for the lowest price so I bought the Rotel.
With the two tube amps - it would actually take a lot of effort in deciding which way to go - the ASL had less of a sound stamped on everything which is good but then the point of buying the tube amp, arguably, was to get that tube sound. Up to the buyer and what music they listen to. I ultimately didn't care much for either - too many problems in both directions for me. I wound up with a second hand Sugden A48b. A somewhat in betweener of the two tube amps and an example of SS design where the people making them actually listened to some music before selling them.
Currently: Main system is tube
Audio Note M6 preamp
Audio Note Empress Silver Monoblocks (2a3)
Audio Note DAC 0.1x (R2R NOS)Audio Note OTO Phono SE (EL34)Integrated
Kingko KA 101 Pro (EL34) Integrated amp & power Amp & headphone ampLine Magnetic CD 215 (Tube CD player)
Line Magnetic 502CA DAC (Tube and SS) *Separate sides at the flip of a switch so it is all-tube or all SS - not a hybrid). (32/192khz ESS Sabre)Wyred4 Sound mAmp Monobklocks (Class D)
Rotel RB 1050 Stereo Power amp (Class A/B)Speakers:
Audio Note E/SPx AlNiCo
Audio Note K/SPe
Audio Note AX Two
Wharfedale E70 (Vanguard Edition)
Tannoy CR650
Edits: 03/10/21 03/10/21 03/10/21Follow Ups:
I like your write up and agree that there are vast differences in sound among tube amplification.For example, I owned the ARC LS25mkII and the BAT VK-30SE, both of which use the 6H30 "SuperTube". These preamps sound very different.
If I were to generalize to the extreme in order to get my point across, the ARC sounds light, lean, and thin. The BAT sounds weighty, rich, robust, but a bit dark. Go figure.
Perhaps the differences have something to do with ARC using JFET solid-state amplification with the 6H30 tube relegated to simple cathode follower duty as a buffer. You know, like those cheap "tube buffer" add on products.
The BAT on the other hand uses the 6H30 to full advantage for amplification and there is no cathode follower that (IMHO) simply veils the sound. But to my ears even though I like the richer sound of the BAT, it's a bit dark overall.
And of course not all solid-state sound the same, not even within a brand. For example, the "small" Krell KSA-50S is a sweet sounding smooth SS amp with huge dynamics, slightly warm, robust and very "musical". The powerful Krell KAV-2250 was mostly grainy, a bit thin in the mids, and harsh overall approaching what I call ear bleed territory reminiscent of older Bryston. I compared Bryston and Classe back in the day and it was no contest as I can attest to enjoying 4 Classe amps over the years.
Similarly, the "cheap" AES/Cary Six Pack EL34 monoblocks were noticeably more to my liking than the iconic CJ Premier 11A.
Edits: 03/11/21 03/11/21
Surely lots of people strongly want tubes in one or more places in their systems, as you'll agree.
For sure I'm no a-hole objectivist who insists all amp sound the same. I believe that there are certain characteristics typically associated with tube components, but I also agree there are huge variations in those effects for given components.
I have an example right in front of me in the case of my current preamp, a Sonic Frontiers Line 1 with "notoriously" slight tube effect5. I like it because, in like my recent Schiit Freya +, it doesn't compromise the transparency and dynamics my downstream Purifi amp can deliver.
Dmitri Shostakovich
Plus TT's etc.
Great if u live in a man cave otherwise a lot to be said for integrated amps with phono stages.
Cheers Johno
The main system in the above picture (left to right: 0.1X DAC, M1 Phono, M6 Phono, TT3 3 motor turntable, TT3 separate power supply to drive the motors.
Currently Rogers LS5/9 speakers in for review. mAmps on the floor beside my Empress Silvers (not in frame) - I have been waiting 4 months for amp stands to arrive so I will use my trusty hockey pucks (some under the TT3).
My second room employs the AN K/Spe and Line Magnetic sources with the Kingko Amp. The AX Two serves rear speaker duty when I switch to the Marantz AVR for movies/video games.
The rest is back in Canada. The Wharfedale's sit mostly 10 ohms 95dB sensitive so the OTO has no trouble driving them. Speakers are still going strong - bought em in 1991. Need cleaning of the contour controls but not bad for 30 years on.
It has always amazed me how folk in the Far East listen to Westminster Royals nearfield in Tokyo apartments !. Till one day a friend demoed the same idea with a set of vintage 15" Tannoy DC's and the penny dropped, listening very quietly with no cabinet coloration was a game changer, spoken word with coherence and articulation became the new goal. I now say to people when they go shopping for new spkrs listen nearfield at whisper levels if what comes off the domes doesn't sound right at earshot it never will, so move on.
Cheers Johno
When I first moved here I was VERY tempted by a second-hand Canterbury - they sounded so clean and clear in the near-field. But when I first got here I was so broke it wasn't funny.
I was $60,000 in student loans and other debt (2011) and I didn't know that the deposit was so crazy high. The rent was $1500 but here you need to give two and half months rent in deposit - the half is an agent fee you don't get back! So I had to come up with over $5,000 in cash. Plus I had to pay for the flight to Hong Kong (to be reimbursed but not for several months).
I had to have my employer give me an advance to be paid back over 6 months. By the time I had the money and enough for a bigger apartment of course the Canterbury's were gone. Still, no regrets. And very happy and lucky I moved here. No way would I own any of this audio stuff or paid off the student loans on a Canadian teacher salary. I am happy Hong Kong kept up with inflation.
I have a few friends in AUD that taught in HK & mainland China International schools. They enjoyed the experience and found it lucrative $. But that was 5 + years ago and with the current CCP leadership it makes me wonder, but hey that's for a different forum and time, all the best
Johno
The International schools pay pretty well. I am in the Public School System which pays even better than the International schools. BUT we get less vacation time and the experience isn't as transferrable as teachers in International Schools.
I also taught in China in 2008/9 school year at a Canadian-run school (within a larger Chinese school so we shared resources like the PE equipment). The principal was Canadian and all teachers needed a Canadian teaching certificate. I had a headphone-based system then.
I always advise people to put down the newspapers and turn off the TV news and go see places for themselves - it's rarely what you expect and the reality is often quite different than what the talking heads babble about.
It's funny, but I defend China to Westerners and defend America to Asians who think America is a violent Mad Max apocalypse of gun-crazy killers. So you have to trot out the statistics telling them that no you are very unlikely to be shot. Stereotypes go both ways.
That said - my job is not guaranteed as it might be in a Canadian Union. I am on two-year contracts and if the Chinese government decides it no longer wants "westerners" influencing their kids in western culture - we'll be booted.
If so - I'll probably make the move to an International School and try for Singapore or Dubai. 12 years ago they were paying $60,000 US a year tax-free and provided free flights, utilities, a car, and an apartment. For a teacher that is a pretty great deal - but it's in Dubai so people get a little fearful. I bet they have crazy Stereo Equimpement there though. The best of the best I am sure.
My brother had some weird stories about his stint in Qatar. He was not military.
Too much is never enough
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