|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
173.120.167.129
I am working through ideas about reconstituting our main system. In general, we use the system for two- and multi-channel listening. I've been using an older (but very good) Cary home theater controller. I may keep it, or I may upgrade. Some controller offer both balance (XLR) and unbalanced (RCA) outputs, and some of the amplifiers I am considering offer both inputs. I tend to keep cable runs to one meter if I can. While I am sure there has been plenty of discussion regarding balanced versus unbalanced, I'd be grateful for any thoughts on this topic, or a pointer what might be considered a good discussion on the Asylum. I do know that the output voltage and sensitivity ratings are different for the outputs and inputs, respectively, for balanced and unbalanced connections, at least on the gear I've seen. Thanks.
Follow Ups:
FWIW, I just built balanced cables to connect my SimAudio 280d streamer/DAC to my Pass INT-60 on the other side of the room, routing them down and across the basement ceiling, back up through the ash dump of an unused fireplace. Zero noise, no worries, no perceivable difference in sound over the previous 3 ft single-ended connection.
Sourced materials through the Guitar Center - Mogami Gold star/quad cable by the foot, Neutrik XLR connectors. 35 ft run. About an hour to build, an hour to fish.
Goal is to make the cables invisible, does not contribute positively to the Living Room decor. The Pass is a weighty thing of beauty, but it's best in its own shrine slightly out of sight in my home.
I run my microphone cables up to 100 feet to the mic preamps balanced, and my recordings don't have any noise problems. Quiet as a dead horse.
:)
And everything to do with how the cable sounds !
If you want to get rid of cable artifact, balanced is how you do it (so you won't have to audition cables to know they sound right).
The problem is that in order for that to happen, the gear should support the balanced line standard. These days, that's known as the AES file 48.
Most high end audio manufacturers don't know about the standard so buyer beware. Ask them; if they don't know about AES File 48, probably a good idea to move on, unless you don't mind auditioning cables.
Balanced, working properly, is why so many audio engineers will tell you that interconnect cables don't make a difference!
Start reading - test on Friday 8 AM sharp :-)
Actually one of my DIY buddies called to tell me he's reading the file, all 13 pages, and thanks Ralph.
Hope the link works.
I read what I could without buying it. Have you bought it, or did you get it free as an AES member?
Anyway...
"Most high end audio manufacturers don't know about the standard so buyer beware. "
If most high end audio manufacturers don't know about it, then what difference does it make? There are MANY AES standards which are not followed, sometimes to get better data transmission, sometimes to get better sound, sometimes because they're not useful or applicable, sometimes because...
:)
"I read what I could without buying it. Have you bought it, or did you get it free as an AES member?"
I got it free this morning after paying $125 to become a member.
I doubt the balanced cables I was sent to audition with naked ends would fit the AES standard. But I'll have to do more reading to be sure.
Good for you!
Getting a free paper every now and then is the only reason why I'd join AES again (no offense to AES intended). I was a member on and off for many years, but the journals really started to pile up, and I'd read "maybe" one paper from each issue. Ditto for the ASA (Acoustical Society of America). Ditto for the ITG (International Trumpet Guild). It's an overwhelming amount of material to keep around, unless you've got a university department to store it all. I've whittled it all down to a manageable amount, but I still have some which go back to 1975 (with the red covers!) because they contain important work which is pertinent to my interests.
Just fyi, if you decide to go the convention, you can get an "exhibits only" pass for free, and go on the various tours (for a nominal charge).
:)
"If most high end audio manufacturers don't know about it, then what difference does it make?"
If it was commonly followed outside of the boutique audio business, and a boutique manufacturer was simply ignorant of it, I would be more skeptical of that company.
If they knew about it and rejected aspects of it for one reason or another thinking they had a better approach, then that's just fine my me philosophically. I'd be even more impressed if they could demonstrate to me their advantages, too.
====
"We have met the enemy and he is us" - Pogo
The advantages of balanced is that it tends to reject external noise pretty well - if you have long runs of cable this is probably your best bet.If you don't, benefits could be elusive since ti depends on the following:
1. Do the components you are connecting use balanced or unbalanced circuity? (Ayre and BAT, for instance, do this. But not a lot of folks do it)
2. Is the primary source of noise RFI or common mode? If so, then balanced might be for you!
3. THe way your system is groundedThe main benefits I have noticed when balanced works is that there is a perceptible drop in the noise floor, small gains in detail & clarity and the perceived bass authority tends to rise some. But my electronics are Ayre for the Preamp and Amp.
Some gear offering balanced inputs or outputs use a transformer to do it, you may find that unbalanced/RCA sounds better in this case (High End Sony SACD players were this way as an example)
As with all things audio, everything like this is really setup specific, there is no short cut to just trying it and seeing!
====
"We have met the enemy and he is us" - Pogo
Edits: 04/24/17
If there's any chance of picking up noise, hum, etc., balanced will be beneficial even in a home setup. If a cable tv DVR or satellite box is involved there is an increased chance of hum. A balanced setup will help here.
If possible, the phono stage should be run balanced or differential..... Especially if moving coil cartridges are used.
But anywhere else, the hum and noise is insignificant to where single-ended would work fine.
"If possible, the phono stage should be run balanced or differential..... Especially if moving coil cartridges are used."Totally agree, but do any systems actually do that ? If you use single conductors shielded, balanced doesn't work all that well. You need biax, two internal conductors and of course they should be shielded.
I know of no systems like that, do you ?
I am not abject to entering a venture to make one actually. In fact even a high quality amp that brings MC level up to MM level. Just flat response. Tailor the capacitance. Then send it to the main phono preamp unscathed.
But the thing is, I have not seen any posts from people with MC carts saying that "When they turned on it made a noise in my stereo". So it seems current technology is pretty much on top of it. I wouldn't count on becoming a fortune 500 company over it.
Edits: 04/23/17
Balanced is generally use when noise pickup is expected. Arc lamps, other machinery in commercial setups may cause it. In a private home the most likely source would be a light dimmer.
Doesn't matter, XLR or RCA, if you step on that cable and pull it the wrong way there might be hell to pay. Of course a new one can be soldered in, but where to get it ? Half of these manufacturers have no sense of duty to support the product after the sale. Think Behringer is good ? Try to buy a part for one. There's another brand of pro equipment, I forgot the name, but you can't even take their equipment apart to clean the pots.
Behringer is not good, it is above all else cheap and sometimes even useable.
It is what is known as pro-sumer gear. If it breaks it gets thrown away. Nobody in their right mind would ever bother repairing Behringer kit.
I use balanced for a few of my connections. I cannot say it makes a lot of difference.
A true dual signal path is very rare. I would guess 98% if the equipment brandishing 'balanced; connections are internally single ended. And they just add an op amp at the output to mirror a signal for the second leg of the balanced connections.
As for how they handle the input?
Anyway, IMO the balanced connector is superior to RCA connectors from a mechanical standpoint.
From a sound quality.. IMO It is a tossup. One may be better in one situation, the other in another
(unless you have a long connection, then XLR balanced is better.
"A true dual signal path is very rare."
Yes - Ayre does it (or used to do it - haven't opened anything up recently), and I beleive BAT does it as well.
If there is gear that uses a circuit technique in order to achieve "balanced" my money would be on the single ended connections to be slightly better.
100% agree with the person that mentioned that and Phono preamps. It's a big, positive difference. It's much less pronounced with other componenets.
I will point out that my Ayre kit (K-5xeMP preamp and V-5xe amp) sounds best with balanced hookups between them. But it is supposed to be fully balanced.
====
"We have met the enemy and he is us" - Pogo
Balanced Audio Technology is one of the few brands that actually has balanced gear. Otherwise those XLR jacks are simply a convenience and nothing more.
We were doing that before BAT; in fact one of the founders was a customer of ours.
How many years has it been since I bought the MP-3 preamp? Too many to count. TAS definitely saved the best for last.
We've made a lot of improvements over the years!
While a component itself may not be internally balanced (and the value of that can be argued separately), the use of balanced outputs/inputs is another issue. Implementing this with non-balanced (the term unbalanced conjures too many associations) equipment, even with transformers or opamps, still affords increased common-mode rejection with long cables.
I do not describe that as "simply a convenience and nothing more."
"I do not describe that as "simply a convenience and nothing more.""
Was going to say the same thing.
If you have long cables you are going to want them to be balanced. Not everyone has all the stereo gear co-located. I know of one setup whee the sources and preamp are near the listening location and then a long run of balanced cables tot h amp and speakers.
====
"We have met the enemy and he is us" - Pogo
Hi Kal, mind if I simply take my post back? :-)
Of course you are correct about the benefits of balanced when using longer cables. I've been using balanced cables, almost exclusively, since the mid-90s.
Sorry about the brain fart.
Sue
I think some home theater preamp manufacturers may offer balanced XLR connectors for installations that have longer cable runs.
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: