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In Reply to: RE: REVIEW: Denon 103D Phono Cartridge posted by Ross on March 07, 2017 at 12:28:58
why buy a SUT when the preamp was designed to handle low level MC cartridges with its 72 db of gain?
I ran a 103 back in the late 70s. Much better exists today.
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I have found that a SUT + internal phono stage sounds better than just the phono stage alone.
I'm not intimately aware of that venerable thirty five year old design. I recall reading the tribulations that inmate Bambi went through to get optimum performance from his SP10.It seemed to be very picky about tube choice in the phono section. I ended up using Amperex 7308s in my SP9 MKIII as well.
Edits: 03/09/17
a few months ago, complete with a set of new EH 6922 tubes. I have a large supply of Amperex 6DJ8 and Siemens 7DJ8 and assorted 7308 tubes. Same tubes are used in the AI Modulus preamps (I have a M3A), another design that is sensitive to tube choices.
Once I get a handle on the sound of the SP10, I will start tube rolling.
I can't speak for others, but I've had fewer noise issues with step-up transformers..... The biggest issue I've had with high-gain active MC stages is getting startled by them picking up "two-way radio" communications. (This didn't happen often, but when it did happen, it's sudden and *loud*. Like "clip the amplifier" loud.) And sometimes radio stations faintly audible in the background noise.
I've also had several experiences with MC cartridges "dropping a channel" using active MC stages, but never had such an experience using step-up transformers.
The biggest issue I've had with high-gain active MC stages is getting startled by them picking up "two-way radio" communications.
If I ever experienced that (which I haven't) I would agree.
I've also had several experiences with MC cartridges "dropping a channel" using active MC stages
Once again, you seem to experience more unusual difficulties than most.
I guess the fundamental question is: why buy (and invest in the added expense of a) a preamp designed for high gain if you're not going to use it?
My SP20 is a two stage preamp which offers plenty of gain for my mid output MC cartridge. I find that to be the most elegant solution without any of the weirdness you voice nor the added expense and cabling.
Digital noise, RF, radio stations, signals from space, ultrasonic echos from flying bats. You name it, Todd can hear it. ;-)
But about SUTs, I actually like the way they sound. To me they seem a little more 'alive' and 'dynamic'. With some phono preamps that handle MC directly, I've actually had better results with the SUT while leaving the phono in MM mode.
This was definitely the case with my EAR 834P. It has it's own internal SUT but it sounds horrible compared to even a modest entry level CineMag SUT. I ran my EAR 834P in MM mode with a Bob's Devices CineMag SUT with much improved sonics.
I had a similar experience with the Musical Surroundings Nova Phonomena battery powered phono. It wasn't that great in MC mode but in MM mode with the SUT it was much better.
One of my favorite tube phono preamps was the Rogue Ares and guess what? It happens to use internal CineMag SUTs when switched to MC mode.
That's not to say all phono preamps benefit from SUTs but some that can't seem to do MC quite right do a lot better in MM mode with an outboard SUT.
My two SUTs. I actually sold the higher-end "Blue" as the entry unit was more than adequate for my needs.
The SUT on the Musical Surroundings Phono which IMHO has a sub-par MC stage. Running it in MM mode with the SUT was a big improvement.
Ditto my EAR 834P which had a horrible set of internal SUTs. The outboard CineMags solved the problem.
Digital noise, RF, radio stations, signals from space, ultrasonic echos from flying bats. You name it, Todd can hear it. ;-)
Does seem that way! I take a break listening when the ISS passes overhead. :)
Indeed the EAR is a simple three tube MM preamp with an added SUT stage for MC duty. The SP10, by contrast employs a single eight tube stage for all the gain. Adding a SUT doesn't bypass anything.
The current REF Phono 2 takes a similar approach using four 6H30 tubes and JFETs (similar approach to my SP20 but with more tubes). I prefer using a single stage optimized for higher gain.
There's not a lot measurements can tell us about what we hear but one certainty is that RF noise below the threshold of hearing for most of us is still noise. There's a lot of noise out there, just ask the guys and gals with the radio telescopes.
8X tube noise in a Phono gain stage?
Your MC amplified passively by a high quality SUT, then a Gas Tube regulated power supply and two stage, passive RIAA circuit, as god and RCA intended, is the way.
There's not a lot measurements can tell us about what we hear but one certainty is that RF noise below the threshold of hearing for most of us is still noise.
The Cable Simpletons still believe that LCR metrics fully evaluate all performance parameters. Except of course for audible effects caused by untrapped RFI/EMI!
I do take power and signal isolation pretty seriously. As Abe opined, however, one individual in particular takes this concern quite a bit further than others. :)
I don't think that Todd is hearing things hidden from the rest of us as I too have suffered from radio pickup via an active high gain phono stage.
It was via the phono stage buit into my ATC SCA2 preamp which was handling the output from a Lyra Clavis DC. During the summer months as soon as it got to sundown I would hear an Italian radio station. The solution was to add a small amount of capacitance to the cartridge loading. Being an MC this didn't affect the FR at all but provided a cure to the breakthrough.
I also now have a preference for SUTs and these days use an EAR preamp with inbuilt phonostage ( 868PL) where MC gain is via SUTs ( not the same ones as in the 834 but the 88P). Even though the preamp's MM stage provides sufficient gain to use my Lyra Skala or modified Denon 103R without the additional SUTs I nevertheless much prefer to engage them. There Just seems to be a bit of magic with an MC/SUT combination.
I note your use of a Bob's Devices SUT with your EAR which is something I would like to try. However the only way I can do that from the UK is to buy one and self import it. Maybe if I find some spare cash and sufficient curiosity. However these days vinyl is taking a bit of a back seat to streaming Qobuz. No doubt the shine will wear off of that eventually.
" I don't think that Todd is hearing things hidden from the rest of us as I too have suffered from radio pickup via an active high gain phono stage."
You were hearing the effects of demodulated RF, not the RF itself. Todd hears RF ;-) Sorry Todd, for picking on you today.
I too have experienced radio station interference in one of my systems where we used to live. The solution was to NOT use my expensive Kimber KCAG interconnects with braided silver VariStrand conductors. A set of shielded interconnects solved the problem 100%.
"Sorry Todd, for picking on you today."
No need to apologize.... I'm maybe the most difficult person here to offend.... [-;
I'm not a cable nut but do believe that a good quality cable can preserve the signal. That being said, the cable you are using can only do damage and it the worst sounding cable one could use. You really should try a better cable.
The dl 103 is the best value in cartridges today and the mods you had done put it in the league of much more expensive cartridges. If you decide you don't want it contact me.
If you're talking about the cheapie cables in my last photo, I would agree. Those are coming off the back of my stock SL-1200mkII TT. My other TT is a highly modified SL-1200mII from KAB with quality RCA phono jacks, fluid damper, tonearm rewire, and a few other tricks. You'll see better cables with that TT in the other pics.But none of this changes the fact that the EAR 834P suffers from a pair of junk internal SUTs that are crammed into it's tight chassis. I know of others who run this phono in the way that I do using it in MM mode with an external SUT. The improvement is huge, not in a tiny audiophool nitpicky way but very obviously noticeable.
This is not the case with all phono preamps that I have owned but the external SUT helps a LOT with some that can't seem to do MC right.
Edits: 03/08/17 03/08/17
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