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Is everyone on here filthy rich ? (filthy is not a slur in this case)
What about the old Phase Linear 400 or 700 ? What about a Pioneer SX-1980 ? What about a Marantz 1180DC ?
Are all those units dogmeat ? Seriously. Many of these older units did perform pretty well, and I understand that maybe you are looking for that last 15 %, but does that mean all this other stuff is just junk and goes to the dumpster ?
Talk about dumpster candidates, I got a Pioneer SX-850 in the garage. The power supply board is broken on three places, I fixed it. It had a blown channel which now has low bias because it bunt up the pot, but anything over a watt or so it sounds fine. Don't get me wrong, I NEVER hear crossover distortion but it is just a bit thin in that channel when it is really low. The glass in the front is broken. I do not have the top or bottom covers. I fixed it as a joke almost. Just to prove it could be done. The tuning knob shaft is bent. There is a fault in the phono preamp that causes fluctuations in the supposedly regulated supplies. It causes DC on the outputs, and is worse in one channel because I had to kinda rig the preamp because I didn't feel like taking the whole front panel apart. I gave half the dial lights to a buddy of mine.
But it works. And it is not for sale. It is connected to some "Sonic" speakers that are the cheapest thing I ever seen. Can't even take the speakers out without cutting wires because like Panasonic Thrusters they are thrown in before the cabinet goes on, but I did. The woofer says "20 watts" but I know it can take more because I have hit it hard with the SX-850.
And connected to it is a mixing board and an American Audio dual CD player. And of course a cord that can connect to a phone or laptop. However I have to fix a new end to that because it has been stepped on too many times.
And all this, at least at this time, even in the frigid weather when I can't use it out there, is not for sale. My Flame Linear is not for sale. Almost all the speakers in my Boston Acousitcs are blown but they are not for sale, nor is my sub or the new tops I came across more recently.
In other words, my systems are a mess, and not high end.
But they are not for sale. Maybe if I get really hard up for money I might change my mind.
But the question is - do you all consider stuff like this just dogshit or what ? I see no posts about what I guess y'all would consider "mid-fi". The only thing close was the one about the Citation 12. And even then, Nelson Pass decided to just use the transformers and rectifiers.
Do you consider all these Pioneers and Sansuis to be "jap junk" ?
Or is it that your quest for perfection has removed the good from the equation ?
Follow Ups:
It's all about how well any given form of amplification deals with the load of the speaker, and whether or not the sonics of the two compliment each other to your ears.
No one amplifier is great with every pair of speakers. You can find the right speakers for just about any half-decent amplifier, and vice-versa. Just takes some auditioning. Trouble is, some amplifiers can take (up to) a couple of weeks to adapt to any given speaker load. I have witnessed this on a number of occasions.
"Trouble is, some amplifiers can take (up to) a couple of weeks to adapt to any given speaker load. I have witnessed this on a number of occasions. "
Absolutely no scientific or technical basis for that. It is probably your ears that adjust.
You would be talking about wearing out components. Now if you're talking something that has been sitting around for ten years yeah, sure, the caps warm up and get better. But the transistors do not get more gain and the resistors do not change in value.
"And people are so stupid they think eating fat makes you fat. It does not, eating carbs makes you fat. When you eat fat, for the most part you shit it out." Where is the scientific basis for this, JURB, Mr. Old Science? Ha JURB?
" Knowledge is a deadly friend
If no one sets the rules.
The fate of all mankind I see
Is in the hands of fools." From the pen of the Crimson King
JURB seems to be impressed with ol' Bob Carver's dog and pony show.
JURB is just as full of shit as Bob Carver, only Bob knew exactly what he was up to and JURB doesn't even have a clue.
Cheers,
SB
...and pretty much destroyed the whole industry. There is reportage that his experiment in matching the sonics of an expensive amp was successful, in which case there should be no reason for tube amps, expensive amps, very high quality expensive connectors, resistors, caps... Also, why is Carver himself selling extremely expensive amps if he can just match the sound of the best amps in the world at a fraction of the price? If the dog and pony show worked, as it has been reported it should have caused a revolution. The equivalent of multi thousand dollar amps for almost everyone. I have emailed Carver this question. Be interesting if I get a answer. I doubt it. This matter should have been settled a long time ago. T456
Edits: 12/24/16
Bobby's cube sure was a sweet thang. Like they say, imitation is the greatest form of flatulence. Tweakie
Edits: 12/22/16
OK, you all can go and spend $30,000 on a pair of fucking cables and $100 per capacitor. The Carver "dog and pony show" was a double blind experiment.
Fuck this shit. People want the BBC, NBC and the NFL to prove everything I have ever read or experienced ? SERIOUSLY FUCK THIS SHIT.
Bye. Assholes.
"It is true that there were no "controls"
here - no double-blind precautions against
prejudices of various kinds." This is from J. Gordon Holt on the Carver Challenge. Don't let the FACTS get in the way JURB. No controls, no single or double blind precautions. No insistence that the test subjects be identical twins. Tweaker456
Edits: 12/22/16 12/23/16
As humans, our ability to measure all things pertaining to electricity and sound waves etc are likely to be very limited. Otherwise we would be able to explain why two different amplifiers from different stables with identical spec's sound so very different.
If you are an electrical engineer however, then you can (and probably will anyway) disregard what I just said. I have yet to meet an electrical engineer who wasn't of the frame of mind that 'if it cannot be measured, it isn't a reality'.
"As humans, our ability to measure all things pertaining to electricity and sound waves etc are likely to be very limited. "
I will capitulate to certain things. First of all the range of human hearing is taken to be 20-20,000 Hz. But who tests higher than that ? Whoever said that at 20,000 Hz your hearing just cuts off completely ? To my knowledge nobody ever actually specifically said that.
If your hearing is that good that you can hear an actual difference of even a 15 KHz sine wave and square wave of the same RMS level, then you might have those golden ears. Your ears might not be all that efficient at hearing up there but they can to it at least, and the brain will accentuate the differences that you hear.
But to hear that you need tweeters that can go beyond 20,000 Hz. Speaker manufacturers usually don't bother, but there are some units out there...
Like piezos. Much distortion but can go well beyond the normal human hearing range. In fact people have tried to use them for pest control with varying success. Piezos tend to have odd order distortion at high levels, but it is the inverse of most dynamic tweeters, the opposite polarity. In other words, as a dynamic tweeter will tend to compress the waveform at higher power levels, a piezo tends to expand it. Some people like the sound and really if you only have normal ears, if you crossover into them at at least 8 KHz you might just like it because it will be almost impossible to hear the actual distortion. You might however hear an apparent increase in dynamic range.
"Otherwise we would be able to explain why two different amplifiers from different stables with identical spec's sound so very different."
Bob Carver actually did it. He did double blind studies to prove it, there is a wiki on it. He took any amp, and they gave hi some tough ones they thought, and he was not to take them apart nor did he get the prints. It was to be treated as a black box. By measuring damping, phase shift and not only distortion but what KIND of distortion he proved that he could duplicate the sound of those amps, and proved it in double blind testing. And these are people who could tell the difference between different amps with the same specs.
And there is always the matter of distortion even more than damping, depending on the load. What KIND of distortion. The SET crowd exists for even order distortion, which is harmonious. If you play a middle A on a piano, the second harmonic is 440 X 2 = 880. You can play those two keys together and they harmonize. But if you multiply by three, not so much.
And then there is phase shift. Old, slow ass transistors that get beefed up by negative feedback, there's the problem. And that is one of the biggest problems with class D, it needs an output filter. As such there will be phase shift.
Understanding phase shift is not that easy. You could have an amp that is ruler flat from 20 to 20 K, but because maybe it is cap coupled it has some phase shift in the low end. Ad because of that little coil on the output, if they have to use one too big because their design is not stable, there will be phase shift at the high end as well.
It will measure ruler flat because they use sine waves and ignore phase altogether, which is a folly that Carver discovered and overcame. Thing is, CAN IT REPRODUCE A SQUARE WAVE ? A simple 1,000 Hz square wave.
Most modern amps (I mean since the mid 1970s actually) can faithfully reproduce that square wave on a scope, but before that not so much. The upper and lower ends of the spectrum are the hardest to get straight.
The 1,000 Hz square wave is good for finding faults in components that can affect frequency response. For distortion you want either a sine wave and a distortion analyser or to use triangle waves and try to measure it on the scope. I'll go with the former rather than the latter because I have an HP 339A which has a measurement floor of 0.0016 % total THD and noise. The design of the unit is such that it is almost impossible for it to underread distortion, any fault will cause it to overread. And though I have not tested much I have never seen anything below 0.5 %. At any level. I have not yet tested the Flame Linear yet but to do that at high power levels I will need a few more things. Or I'll just sell it.
"I have yet to meet an electrical engineer who wasn't of the frame of mind that 'if it cannot be measured, it isn't a reality'."
Well now you have. Let's say your ears are a micrometer. A good one that measures down to the ten thousands of an inch. I have a simple caliper that measures down to one thousandth of an inch. I cannot measure it but you can. Tell you what, my hearing was destroyed by a disease and sometimes I can't even tell if a tweeter is blown.
So YOU are the measuring instrument. I used to be pretty damn good. I could hear a conversation from three rooms away and surprised people like "HEY, you talking about me ?". They were like damn, he could hear us ? And that is when we were going to concerts and band practices and all that. My one buddy had a party with TWO live bands in his house at the same time. (big house) I got a loud music complaint from the next city over, seriously I lived in Rocky River and Lakewood came. (Ohio)
But I could still hear. If any speaker blew or was about to I could hear it and I would say "Something is wrong here".
I don't have those ears anymore and I miss them. I miss my eyesight even more. That sweet sound of those Boston A-150s, which were the only speaker I would tolerate after hearing the Cantons.
I have enjoyed music on a series of products I have owned. Many would/are disparaged - some are reveled. Here are the Amplifiers (in sequence of purchase- * is still own and operates)
Feel free to comment:
Kenwood KA7300 Integrated Amp
Dynaco 410 Power Amp
Advent 300 RCVR* (OK, I was using the 15 Watt power amp for rear channels)
Carver 400 Cube (in Champagne)
Dynaco Stereo 400 Amp (Short time owner)
NAD 2150 Power Amp*
Dynaco SCA-35 Integrated Amp
Sansui 1000* (I was going through a tube phase)
Harmon Kardon AVR520 RCVR* (currently, side & rear channel amplification only)
Crown XTI2000 Power Amps (2)* (I've owned several)
McIntosh MC352 Power Amp* (My Reference now)
Add to these several Audio Control 50 watt that I still own for distribution amplifiers- a couple small T Amps and a converted Automobile Kenwood Cassette player/RCVR that still works amazing well after 25 years.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
I build my own low-powered integrated tube amplifiers using salvaged iron and inexpensive tubes (12aq5, 12ab5, 6aq5, 7061, 5V6GT, 12V6GT, etc).
Loudspeakers are also home built using Baltic Ply and old Belgian-made Phillips 6" full range drivers.
Steve
You have a garage. I don't even have a water spigot for a hose.
My gear is of the Pioneer's vintage, and some older, and some newer. And some BRAND NEW, but from clearance. I buy smart, listen well, and acquire music with a heat-seeking nature developed from decades of crate-digging, cunning and skullduggery, even in an age when vintage things of value are being hoarded like cherished heirlooms of old. I am pure stealth technology combined with a gangster mentality (no pants on the ground, though).
I'm filthy rich.
http://thewarmteenagetangerine.blogspot.com/
Yes, the Phase Linear 400 and 700 are dogmeat. Or, more precisely, they sound the way you would expect based on how they are built ... with a tiny transformer, almost no power supply reserve capacity and tons of global negative feedback. Pick one up (without the heavy wood case) and no, you won't risk a hernia. Neither would your four year old daughter.Specifications that impress every green "all amplifiers sound the same" Electrical Engineer with tin ears. If you want to get to know the sound of bad Solid State HiFi, these are the units to audition. Your Pioneers, although far from the State Of The Art, would run circles around them. You could not give one to me. Honestly.
Why not mate one with a Crown DC-150 in a bi-amp system and really play with the bad SS Hit Parade? You have your choice for the HF driver ... unbearable top end (Phase LInear) or no top end (Crown).
These units are the reason the reviewer phrase "Glassy" was invented.
Edits: 12/19/16 12/19/16 12/19/16 12/19/16
I suspect that much of that equipment really didn't sound as good as some of us remember. The capacitors are old and they are probably not worth repairing EXCEPT for the tuner sections. Some of the stand-along tuners are nice to restore.
A friend (long ago) had a Dynaco that sounded terrific.
If you want to save bucks, used home theater receivers are very inexpensive and some probably sound reasonable good as well. That is the way to go and then buy some decent cabling and loudspeakers and you should be set to go.
Sadly I do it myself.
Making comments about others lack of sophistication, or listening habits..
Insulting folks who SHOULD BE OUR FRIENDS..
I think audiophiles are part heartless... I wonder if it is part of the breed.
We certainly are shattered, with little love for each other, only grudging acknowledgement..
Yeah I am bad myself...
I'm not filthy rich. Not even rich. But the stuff you have described is dogshit, regardless of my (or anyone's) financial status.
But if it makes you happy, what do you care what others think?
+2. How could you term a collection of broken 70's mid-fi stuff anything other than refugees from the dumpster? However, if it makes YOU happy then it's fine by me.
+1 Any reasonably well designed piece of electronics with modern, high quality resistors, capacitors and wire should blow away the old stuff. Why wouldn't it? Old music, yes, old electronics, nonsense. T456
" Knowledge is a deadly friend
If no one sets the rules.
The fate of all mankind I see
Is in the hands of fools." From the pen of the Crimson King
Maggie 3.6/Harbeths, Parasound Halo, Bryston, Lyra, Kuzma, etc. Small system is recapped/slightly modded (by me) Pioneer SX-1050, modded/restored Boston A200's and Technics/Shure. Guess which one gets the most music time. The old stuff sounds amazingly good.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
What I am listening to right now cost about $250.00 and sounds quite good to me.
About the same $ here.
Newest component is late 1970s.
Sounds good and makes me happy.
What else could matter?
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
But a lot of that 70's and 80's stuff was junk even when it was brand new, and it certainly has NOT improved with age.
I'm not rich at all, but every piece in my $5-6K system sounds better than anything you mentioned.
If you prefer dumpster diving and bragging about it, that's fine, but don't expect us all to follow you there! Life is way too short to listen to that shitty gear.
Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9
Most solid state gear in the 1970s sounded "decent" during that time because there was so little RFI all over the place, relative to the digital era.....
All I remember from that time is it seemed a LOT easier to get good sound than now, even with relatively inexpensive and/or solid state gear.
Laughing...
1) Nobody said your stuff was dogmeat, dogshit or junk. But the Pioneer is pretty dang close to junk due the state of repair it's in. I'm personally not comfortable using stuff that's in the state you've described. You are. Who am I to judge?2)The fact that you know how to fix this stuff is key. Would you spend the dollars to have a tech repair that SX-850? Cool you don't have to make that decision, but most people do.
3) A system in the garage I'd think for most anybody is not going to be held to the highest standards in any case. Doubt many of even the filthiest of the filthy rich have ARC gear to entertain them while they admire their collections of auto exotica.
There are other forums with more of a focus on 'vintage' gear. You used to be a member of one of them, IIRC.
Edits: 12/17/16
I have equipment over 30 years old that I love. Caveat... you are prepared to do some DIY. Such as yourself. Otherwise it's not cost effective.
Cheers!
Ed
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
Kaopectate!
...not 1987.
I would not consider mid 80's Japanese midfi worth keeping around.
I have a few DACs, a 3rd TT, a spare preamp I found at Goodwill (Which I sold the matching tuner here for $300)
Others I sold, a set of miniature Technics to a local store. Another store gave me $50 for a Ortofon stepup transformer I paid $1 for...
But junk is junk.
Cables are one group I tend to keep. I still have some cables I used in the 80's. Even though I would never put them in my setup. True I sold a few which had some cash value.
so it isn't only a matter of the dinero.Mostly it is a matter of experience and taste.
Most of the more expensive equipment used by those that post
here (ie likely experienced audiophiles/pursuants of better sound)
have been around for a while and been down those paths and
have "graduated" to greener ear pastures.Many of us have done our Pioneer SX fill in the blank time.
Some of us are still doing so since that sound has a certain appeal.
I think a LOT of the big bucks equipment you may be thinking of has
been purchased by a newbie with a nice quarterly bonus check and set
up by a dealer in more of a lifestyle move OR by the the type of experienced
audiophile that does not post here or elsewhere (maybe on the What's Best forum
for perceived "status") because that's just not what they do or who they are.Personally I'm happy with my 35 YO+ preamp, 15 YO CDP, 10 YO (??) amp and
12 YO + speakers. Even my cables are old!All bought used.
I have nothing against new equipment (can't afford it), nothing against old SS
equipment (been there, done that) but have found a FINE vein of used equipment
at VERY reasonable prices that works for me in my life.
It's all good; it's all good for the individual and doesn't have to be anyone's definition of
"high end" - it just needs to sound good to you in your space and in your time.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure
Edits: 12/17/16
the Pioneer SX-1980 receiver together with the Pioneer CTF 1200 cassette deck back in 80's that drove a pair of Infinity Qa speakers. It did sound good especially if I disabled the tone control. Based on my experience of owning other components such as from Sansui and Techniques with the same power output or there about in the same era, I thought the Pioneer outperformed them.
I saw some of them in ebay that sells for over $4,000. Would it compete to some of the newer equipment that sells for the same money? Probably not. The Audio Research CL 60 tube amp that sells for $2,000 will outperformed it quite easily soundwise.
If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)
"jap junk" ? Seems appropriate that this would be your thing. I don't touch the stuff myself. Spew on.
" Knowledge is a deadly friend
If no one sets the rules.
The fate of all mankind I see
Is in the hands of fools." From the pen of the Crimson King
"Lesser equipment" is that which sounds bad. Expensive != good sounding
necessarily. Inexpensive != bad sounding necessarily.
I don't think everyone on this forum is filthy rich. I certainly am not, and I have bought almost all used equipment over the last 15 years or so. Now, most of my components are at least thirty years old and I think my system sounds great.
I have had some of my components rebuilt. My turntable, a Thorens TD-124, for example was rebuilt and sounds wonderful. It was built like a tank, plays all four speeds: 16, 33 1/3, 45 and 78 rpm and sounds great.
If you enjoy the music you get from your components, why worry about whether someone thinks they are "dogs"? Clearly you take pride in rehabilitating some worn old units, which is a great skill to have.
There will always be some overly opinionated people on these forums who will trash well-regarded components. Who cares?Enjoy your music.
George
Edits: 12/17/16
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