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I was wondering how high this was going. Long live Beatlemania!
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/entertainment&id=9046610
Probably has an uber system to play it on also!
Edits: 03/30/13 03/30/13Follow Ups:
.
Those who don't learn it are doomed to repeat it. But tell me -- how long before my Rosalyn Tureck Well Tempered Clavier LP set, both boxes autographed by the pianist, for which I paid nothing, is worth more than a Sgt. Pepper autographed by all four Beatles?
I think that will happen, but not in my lifetime.
I understand age based and nostalgia based collecting demand. But there are many items that retain value far beyond what the dynamics of age and nostalgia would imply. Beatle memorabilia trends will be interesting to observe, much like Elvis and even Sinatra.
Other than audio equipment and vinyl, I am somewhat familiar with collector cars.
Muscle cars- demand is almost exclusively driven (no pun intended) by aging boomers who want to own what they wanted as teenagers. European, Asian and High End American buyers/collectors are absent in this market. When the boomers die off, we may well see a leveling of muscle car prices. But something like a Hemi Superbird or L88 Corvette will likely maintain value.
How does one explain the continued escalation in prices for automobiles of the 20's and 30's ? The high end such as Duesenberg, Bugatti, Benz 540k will always have a market. How do you explain demand for other, lesser vehicles ? Cadillac, Lincoln, Packard, Pierce Arrow for example. Prices continue to climb and I would bet that the new owners were not alive when the cars rolled off of the assembly line. By high end standards, these cars are plentiful in the market, yet demand expands and prices continue to escalate.
Ferrari and Lamborghini were cited as series production used cars. In the great scheme of things, they are still somewhat rare and prices for models from the 70's and 80's have fallen to the point where they have become an affordable entry point for many. Nostalgia may be a factor of course. But since demand for something like an early 308 or Urraco has increased over the past few years, serious collectors are starting to reappraise the vehicles and have noted that with a careful restoration, they can become useful almost daily drivers. And viable alternatives to a 7 figure Miura or Daytona.
Looking at our hobby- prices for vintage tube equipment have continued to move upward. 10-15yrs ago, who would have predicted that a clean, working ST70 would sell for $600 ? I would not have, yet that price is repeatable. What about prices for WE theater speakers ? Most were not alive when these were produced, and they are not as scarce as you would think, yet demand continues to increase. Blue Note and other vintage jazz records. Nostalgia sure, but there are newer (and younger) buyers coming into the market every day. Speaking personally, I consider myself a collector, but demographically, I am 20yrs younger than what a nostalgia based demand model would predict. I like the music and I like holding a connection to the time of the artist in my hand while listening. Is that enough to sustain me ? Maybe. Is that enough to bring new enthusiasts into the fold ? Hopefully.
Best,
Ross
And at this point, one cannot tell really in which category this object will be in 30 years from now.
Great art that is universally recognized as great art has its fluctuations and fads, but because of its intrinsic greatness, generally holds its values--the bottom never drops out. Household-name "great artists" 's prices can peak and then go soft-ish, while artists who have not gotten their due still have room to appreciate. I doubt whether Edward Hopper art values since the early 1970s have kept up with inflation. I bought a fair amount of art back then because I liked it, but the things I liked have not kept up with inflation.
There was a very instructive video up about a man who was down on his luck and so he sold an Indian blanket that had been in his family for more than 100 years. Turned out it was one of the earliest pre-Civil War "Chief's Blanket" s, and it went at auction for $1.8 million. That is because it is surpassingly rare, had awesome provenance, and is hugely important to US cultural history.
An LP signed by four band members: IMHO, none of the above. How many objects did the Beatles jointly and severally sign between say 1959 and their death dates or today? I saw on auction a cancelled check that Babe Ruth had used to pay his property taxes. Whoopee. If you need Mr. Ruth's autograph, that is one way to get it.
This present auction sounds to me like at least two guys who think of themselves as big shots were showing off with their extra cash. Unlike the Indian blanket, I don't think this object has that much unique cultural significance. The original artist's "Comprehensive" design proposal, that is something a museum might pay six figures to have. This result was because two guys lost perspective.
And here is my larger point, heretical though it might be: The jury is still out on the Beatles' cultural significance for people who didn't live through those years (and I would hasten to say the same about Elvis Presley).
Here's a thought experiment: 70 years ago, just about the biggest reputation in popular music belonged to: Glenn Miller. Bigger than Louis Armstrong, bigger than Count Basie, bigger than Duke Ellington. However, most of the people who lived through Glenn Miller's rise and early death, themselves are now dead. I think I have one relative still left alive who remembers Glenn Miller's heyday. Today, Glenn Miller is a footnote in the history of popular culture.
So, here is JOHN MARKS' IRON LAW OF THE UTTER TRANSITORINESS OF MOST COLLECTOR-ITEM VALUES:
"That which is lovely to a man when he is 19 years old, will be lovely to him forever. And many men, not just Jay Gatsby, will do whatever it takes to acquire that object, at whatever cost, and however fleetingly."
That explains why, before the mid-2000s financial meltdown, a guy paid $1.6 million for a Barracuda convertible--a car with plebian DNA and vinyl upholstery. That is an auction result that will not stand.
When the generation that got their drivers' licenses between 1964 and 1974 has died off, sane people will wonder what that guy was thinking.
And the same can be said for most Ferraris and Lamborghinis--the cars that are at bottom, series-production used cars. A car special-ordered for Ingrid Bergman, different story.
I could go on.
My bold prediction: When the current generation of Beatles' collectors has died off, the value of most Beatles tchotchkes will fall to the level of Glenn Miller memorabilia today, because that market is being supported today by Jay Gatsby's spiritual heirs. One's Beatles' lunchbox might have sentimental value to your kids because it reminds them of you, but don't expect their peers to pay $5,000 for it.
Cue up Peter Paul & Mary: "When will they ever learn"
Pro se et in forma pauperis.
John Marks
Pop culture icons rise and fall, obviously. But my question is, does that mean my autographed Rosalyn Tureck Well Tempered Clavier LP set, for which I paid nothing, will surpass in value the Sgt. Pepper LP autographed by the Beatles? Maybe so, but not in my lifetime.
Collectors buy to satisfy emotional and aesthetic needs, not as an investment vehicle. JP Morgan famously collected medieval illuminated manuscripts. Worth plenty today, but no doubt he paid plenty for them in 1895 dollars. And he never sold them, instead hiring a curator and creating what eventually became the JP Morgan Library, one of New York's greatest museums. And JP Morgan wasn't exactly a hayseed when it came to investments.
. . . when we cleaned out Grandma's attic after she died. It looks really old, and was published by some outfit called Gutenberg. But it's not in great shape -- some guy named M. Luther has scribbled all over the margins and the flyleafs. Probably not worth much . . .
That's THE example.
I'm going with three generations.The two most recent Edward Hopper oils to hit the market went for over 9 million and over ten million dollars.
I think Hopper owners are doing OK!
Edits: 04/01/13
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People due place high values on things they wanted but couldn't get as youth. I surfed a few of those waves English motorcycles was one in the late 80s BSA goldstars where worth near 30k. But as boomers aged out the price dropped most boomer centered collectibles are going to drop like stones in price as they age out of markets and that's already happening. Looks at prices of collectible glass. The youth of today are not into piling up goods have no time, place of cash for it. Are not into Beatles and vintage cars motorcycle collecting. Time will tell.
...When you write;
This present auction sounds to me like at least two guys who think of themselves as big shots were showing off with their extra cash. Unlike the Indian blanket, I don't think this object has that much unique cultural significance. The original artist's "Comprehensive" design proposal, that is something a museum might pay six figures to have. This result was because two guys lost perspective.
So according to you the person or persons, unknown to you, think they are a big shot and are showing off their extra cash. It is a funny thing the buyer projected all this to the world anonymously, eh?
What could possibly give you cause to believe the buyer gives a continental banana his purchase has much unique cultural significance ?
Who the hell are you to claim someone, someone totally unknown to you, someone whose financial capacity is totally unknown to you, has lost perspective?
I think your anecdote about Glenn Miller is not only weak but totally irrelevant to the auction price.
I don’t know who bought the Beatles Album and I certainly wouldn’t dream of claiming I know their motives or otherwise for the purchase. Such crystal ball arrogance is best left to folks like... you!
Smile
Sox
I am always amused by people who try to dismiss other people's spending as showoffs, bad investors, clueless, nouveau riches, etc. etc., especially when the "critic" has no hope of ever paying the price. To my ear, it's hollow envy.
Sometimes people will pay a lot for something because it is unique and meaningful to them. Sometimes it's as a speculative investment. I'm the last guy to criticize someone for either. If they can afford it, and it gives them pleasure, so what.
reminding you of anyone YOU know?
"shopaholic" and taxi-rider.
roger wang.
take spelling lessons yet from your charity cases who need education?
roger wang.
`
Smile
Sox
Maybe not, but there are plenty of other problems with it. John Marks used the qualifier, "Sounds to me like ...". Of course he doesn't know the bidders in question. He is describing a common phenomenon of which this APPEARS to be an example. There is nothing arrogant about that. He is also predicting future events, which he, you and I well know, cannot be done with certainty. That doesn't mean he is wrong to do so.
I wonder if you and others in this thread who disagree with him so strongly own large Beatles collections. If so, cheer up -- I'm a Beatles fan, and I'm sure I would admire your hoard.
...Like what precisely?Don't be shy, make a list.
John Marks used the qualifier, "Sounds to me like ...".
That is a very nice cherry-pick of his post.
At the end of the day, John Marks doesn’t have the first damn clue who bought the album or the motive which drove the buyer to actually buy. Or if the buyer gives a flying fruitcake what the album may or may not be worth in time to come. Or what anyone else thinks.All the self-indulgent hyperbole opined by Marks is based on total ignorance of the motive(s) behind the buyer.
That doesn't mean he is wrong to do so.
It has nothing to do with right or wrong. I made a simple point it is arrogant and presumptuous.In this instance without intimately knowing the motive & perspective of the buyer it is arrogant & presumptuous to opine the buyer has lost perspective.
Simple as that mate.
Cheers.
EDIT; Syntax
Smile
Sox
Edits: 04/03/13
on a daily basis and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight to that particular phenomenon.
Whether they carry on collecting Beatles memorabilia and such with the fervor that has been the case for NEARLY 50 years now will be interesting to see.
But you might try for a better example than Glenn Miller to make your point.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
They don't then go out and blow $100,000 for a lock of John's hair.
yet.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
My teenage daughters, 14 and 16, LOVE the Beatles and they report that they are hardly alone in their admiration at school.
"The Blues isn't about feeling better. It's about making other people feel worse and making a few bucks while you're at it" "Bleeding Gums" Murphy
John, how old are the folks who are dropping thousands on Robert Johnson 78s and how do they fit your theorem?
When the current generation of Beatles' collectors has died off...
Therein lies the difference between Glenn Miller and The Beatles. Unlike Glenn Miller fans, Beatles fans inspire new generations of Beatles fans. I know I've done my part.
Some of the Beatles music is 50 years old ...that's 5 times older than some of their fans. Pretty impressive.
How time will treat The Beatles is all conjecture for now. Personally I think their mark on music will be long-lasting. They may well be more popular 50 years from now than Glenn Miller was 50 years ago.
It seems whenever something sells for an extraordinarily high price it is easy to say it was too much. Take for example the pre-2000 sale of that Barracuda convertible at 1.6 million you mentioned ...an auction price that "will not stand." Not only did it stand, it was surpassed in 2007 when another example sold for 2.2 million.
Collectibles are much like the stock market in that you pay your money and take your chances. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't.
Sometimes luck has more to do with it than calculation.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Even though my own daughter is one of those teenagers happily loading my Beatles collection on to her iPod. It is pretty consistently the case that each generation wants and creates its own pop culture heroes. Though retro-heroes often resonate with later generations, they seldom generate the same fervor as they did originally.
Of course, the Beatles produced work of great musical merit and IMHO raised the standards of the entire rock 'n' roll genre. They have also remained highly influential on popular music for decades, and I think that more than anything explains their continued robust popularity. But that influence has and inevitably will continue to gradually wane in the face of other, newer influences and styles. And once all the Beatles are deceased (hopefully not for many more years!) their status as pop icons will inevitably begin to fade regardless of their musical influence.
...my 22 year old daughter has a big Abbey Road cover poster on her wall and a framed copy of the LP "Help" which used to be her favorite movie as a kid.
I was in an audio club 20+ years ago, and a member told me his ten year old daughter was into the Beatles.
Twenty some years later, and a guy I work with has three daughters, between the ages of three and ten. He tells me his kids love Beatles music.
Each new generaton seems to pick up on The Beatles, the music remains popular, and it still sells. That simply wasn't the case with Glen Miller.
As you said, "Pretty impressive"!
Since America's great orchestras are dying slowly but steadily , can we apply your words to the greats of clasical music? When the older, wealthy patrons die off, can we assume that classical music will follow your example of Miller?
BTW, you ever really take notice of muzak choices? Beatles are commonplace these days as are many more obscure rock and roll bands now long passed on. Don't hear much classical, so I am assuming they have not really penetrated the popular culture. Don't get me wrong now, I love classical music, but I love other forms of music, too, including current pop tunes. My guess is iTunes is a good barometer for music trends.
Your examples also show a basic lack of understanding of certain aspects of collecting. Babe Ruth's signature on a cancelled check is great proof of authenticity. By law, you must endorse your own check, not have a secretary forge your signature (at least back then). The provenance of the check is proof of its being genuine. That's why many athletic signatures on contracts are so valuable.
As for cars, your rule does not explain the market value of the Edsel, considered one of the uglier cars ever designed. Nor does it explain the value of a Ford Model T, one of the greatest produced items ever, and whose original owners have mostly long passed on.
However, it is very true that collector prices fluctuate and can fluctuate greatly. A lot has to do with the availability of expendable income. Wipe out the middle class and a lot of prices drop.
Korea, Japan and China have a growing middle class. They drive up the prices for a lot of collectibles, particularly records and vintage audio gear. Why them? Simple: the war years destroyed their middle class and placed eceonomic priorities elsewhere. They are making up for lost time.
Same thing in Germany, BTW: the war years robbed their middle class of certain luxury goods that they coveted.
As are many orchestras that were trapped in their own bubbles and only talked to each other and never to potential converts.
However, the week before last I experienced the total opposite of the dying American orchestra phenomenon: Eric Whitacre and his singers filling Boston Symphony Hall with an ecstatic crowd, which was the youngest crowd I have ever seen in Symphony Hall.
Yeah, I know, it was not symphonies. But perhaps orchestras have raised the bar to entry so high that they will, like the famed NYT dinosaur in evening attire cartoon, die away. But anyone with an internet connection can sing in one of Whitacre's Virtual Choirs, and they attract millions of YouTube hits. Note well that most local orchestras can't do things like that because the AFoM is stuck in the 1940s.
Classical music will be with us forever. If the Philadelphia Orchestra has to liquidate, that will be sad, but not the end of the world. Old art forms like choral singing will lie dormant until someone who is both a music and a social genius comes along to wake them.
This by the way is also a golden age of string-quartet playing and composing.
BTW, I don't think I have a lack of understanding of collecting. I was not saying that the person who bought the cancelled Babe Ruth property tax check was totally nuts. I know that that is a good guarantee that the signature is genuine. But I just don't go ga-ga over sports figures. Or almost any such things. I would not particularly care to own an Abraham Lincoln autograph.
Ciao,
JM
would lead to sparser audiences, I'd argue: the chestnuts are (in the main) more melodious, are more familiar even to the casual listener.
Our symphony "problem," may not be music related. How many orchestras in Europe similarly are in decline?
W/out much study, I'll just throw out the idea that expecting the middle-class to fund an art, especially when middle-class wealth has remained stagnant for thirty years, isn't a viable strategy. Sure, the well-off have done well, but obviously that hasn't translated into commensurate arts largesse. Perhaps that's not entirely lamentable. It's repulsive to have every person w/a few million expect their donations to be purchases; nouveau riche aren't always those best qualified to make the best music decisions. And entering the so-and-so hall, in the so-and-so center, to hear the cowed music director, pre-concert, having to recite a laundry list of concert donors is abhorrent.
Edits: 04/02/13
The Principal Clarinet in Philly turned down jobs in Chicago and NY Phil to stay in Philly. Maybe he knows something we don't.
You Tube Play Alongs for Symphony Orchs is a dumb idea. I don't think the Union is at fault.
I hope that Choir is better than , oh, say, Celtic Women, Tenors, what have you.
I'm aware of the fiscal crisis of this ensemble, but I do think Philadelphia right now has the best symphony orchestra in the U.S. ......
I think the demise of orchestral institutions is two-fold.....
One is the network media, since around 1970, has been behaving as if these institutions don't even exist. (Prior to that, there were symphony concerts on prime time television...... A major reason why Leonard Bernstein was maybe the best-known conductor in U.S. history: He was the NYPO music director with the TV exposure, up to when the media shut these broadcasts down..... Many people know who Bernstein was, but hardly anyone knew his successor. Which happened to be Pierre Boulez. Because the TV exposure was since gone. Completely.)
Two is the copyright restrictions.... It seems like public broadcasts are even illegal to re-broadcast in a not-for-profit manner..... This has even impacted exposure on modern video sites like YouTube..... (American orchestras have YouTube channels, but are so restricted from showing even short excerpts of concert performances.) Most European orchestras, on the other hand, don't have such restrictions, hence those followings have been better sustained, especially abroad. Since FM radio was waning in popularity, due to the internet age, such exposure is even further hindered. But the copyright restrictions have really stifled interest in American orchestras, because people tend to follow what's accessible, not necessarily what has been acclaimed in the past.
Some European orchestras, most-notably the Berlin Philharmonic, has jumped on the opportunity to expand its following by offering concert broadcasts via the internet (link below). In 1080p video. And offering free excerpts on YouTube to preview these concerts. The Berlin Philharmonic should be a model followed by other major symphony institutions..... But unfortunately (or fortunately for the BPO), others have not followed suit. I just hope the copyright policies aren't stifling these institutions from undertaking similar endeavors.
Which is not at all surprising, in that key members appear to be on loan from The Sixteen and Stile Antico.I think that your comparison to Celtic Woman indicates you don't know much about today's vocal music scene. Perhaps you should buy the latest issue of LISTEN magazine. Whitacre, btw, is Composer in Residence at Cambridge University.
And I never suggested YouTube "play-alongs" for orchestras. This must be the week for creative misquotation of John Marks.
There is a concert video--55 minutes--of the Eric Whitacre Singers up on YouTube, link attached.
I hope you enjoy it.
JM
Edits: 04/01/13
nt
This is absolutely fabulous music, performed fabulously! What a treat! Thank you for the introduction, I was completely unaware of the man and his music.
but you are allowing your personal tastes dictate your views.
That is very dangerous when making generalizations.
Babe Ruth's records have long been surpassed, but has that made his signature obsolete and unwanted? He died long before the vast majority of us was even born, too.
Yeah; classical music will remain with us no matter what. But live performances will diminish, and in my opinion, and apparently you may disagree, music, to me at least, means live performances. Rock and Roll will command even higher prices than many classical performances, and the the average joe is more than willing to spend that kind of money. How many of the purchasers of sold out pop concerts would spend the same money for classical performances.
Even Boston had a concert devoted to the Beatles IIRC.....
"How many of the purchasers of sold out pop concerts would spend the same money for classical performances."
None. How many of the patrons at the Metropolitan Opera would spend the same money (and it sure is $$$) for a pop concert?
Stop misquoting me.
I understand that some people will buy strange objects to feel a closer emotional connection with their idol.
However, in the case of a production LP with four signatures on it, I think that the bidder totally lost perspective.
JM
NT
I too, share similar thoughts on this outcome.
Likely, the guy isn't even a Beatles nut or seriously listens to nice audio.
Perhaps I'm way off the mark and the opposite is true.
My controversial larger point is that today's boomers think that the Beatles were totally unique. Not much different from Glenn Miller in my book.
And most of the music the former Beatles produced on their own was not good at all.
JM
are reputations in any of the arts based on 'majority of output' (my wording, not a quote from your original posting).
let's agree: MOST of lennon-maccartney compositions were intrinsically below average and/or recognized as intrinsically below average. does that mean the title of 'great' can not be applied?
roger wang.
"let's agree: MOST of lennon-maccartney compositions were intrinsically below average and/or recognized as intrinsically below average." By Whom?
I swear, non musicians just don't get it. Most reviewers are writers who have little actual musical experience.
If someone is trashing the Beatles, they are idiots.
Are you an idiot?
.
you'll be old enough to go to school. They will show you how!
You raise an interesting question or problem in practical aesthetics.
Does the fact that some artists' output is widely variable in quality--even judged only by their own standards as exemplified in their best work--mean we should consider them differently than we do a different artist with a much smaller output, the quality of which is equal to the more prolific artist's best productions?
My favorite Frank Sinatra song is "Lazy Crazy Hazy Days of Summer," because it is total irredeemable crap, and therefore a great antidote when people praise Sinatra far beyond his worth.
I think that some artists are much more aware of this factor than others are, with the result that they are careful to bite off less and chew more thoroughly.
Who knows, but perhaps large quantities of music that is not up to the heights of inspiration of their best is a contributing factor in the second-tier ranking of many classical composers, such as Mendelssohn, Tschaikovsky, and Ravel. Or perhaps some composers are just lucky: I don't think that if anyone heard the film score to "The Girlfriends" they would immediately proclaim it a work of genius, but, Shostakovich wrote it. Lucky for him, almost nobody has heard it!
Lennon & McCartney's best ranks with the best music of their period. But surely not all periods!
I really don't think that except for a very few songs, one of which was written only by McCartney but he stuck to their oral agreement re: joint credit, that L &M as songwriters are on the same level as the Gershwins, Kern, Cole Porter, Hoagy Carmichael, and Rodgers and Hart.
I'd put L & M on the level of craftsmanship of Jimmy van Heusen, actually.
Sorry to all the true believers.
JM
Lawrence Welk edited out the word Beer on his show! Subbed Cheer.
But he had his "Champagne Lady"!!!
Thanks for that, it is priceless.
BTW, Welk started out with a legendary hot dance band. He toned it down when he figured out that middle-of-the-road stuff had broader appeal.
Welk actually made one ragtime record and some other sides for Gannett in the 1920s.
I actually read his #2, Myron Floren's autobiography. He was a much more proficient accordion player than Welk.
JM
I've watched a few Welk Shows on local Public TV recently. Some black and white , some in 60's-70-s Extreme Color. Amazing stuff, for reasons I can't even articulate.
A friend used to say- "That's the sort of thing that gives White People a Bad Name!".
A couple of Welk Jokes:
(Reading from Cue card)- And now a song from World War Eye-eye, Take A Train!
Or, Talking to the Band, "The Sponsor is here tonight, so Pee on your toes." ( It helps to imagine his accent!)
Mmmmm, Cheer, err, I mean Beer!
Welk's parents immigrated to the US from a German-speaking enclave in Russia that Welk claimed had been populated by Germans from Alsace-Lorraine, the area in dispute between France and Germany that had a major role in causing three major wars. As well as the Algerian War for Independence.
The US town Welk's family immigrated to was German-speaking, but they taught English in the high school.
Due to a pressing error at a Japanese CD plant in the early days of CD, a CD that was supposed to be Lawrence Welk and his Champagne Music Makers had the audio program of Sid Viscious' Greatest Hits. You can imagine the oldsters: "This isn't Sissie and Bobby!"
JM
The news of this upcoming auction has been around on other forums for a little bit, but it seems that estimates were way off the mark.
As three_sox says, some collectors have very deep pockets.
Regards,
Geoff
that the buyer will never ever play it at all.
... Wealthy collectors are a breed of their own.
Smile
Sox
how much the Beatles autographs my wife had from 1964 are worth.
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
... There is only one way to find out!
:)
Smile
Sox
I know - Rona's hsitant though
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
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