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In Reply to: RE: Portable Disk based Music Players, Menu Wheel and on-line shopping for music all predate Apple's iPod...(nt) posted by rick_m on August 15, 2012 at 07:28:55
Rick,
When I say Disk based I am referring to the hard drive music player, give me some credit.
In fact, the first portable digital music player patented by a Brit in 1979 looks a LOT like a first generation iPod. It was designed for "Magnetic Bubble" Memory, the 1970's equivalent of solid state "Flash Memory" and so was conceptually years ahead of Apples first iPod.
In 1979.
Several Hardrive Juke boxes or whatever you want to call them notched up significant sales before the iPod was even started as product project. Equally, stores that would allow you to legally download MP3's and have software "sync" them to such a player existed before iTunes.
Similar prior art can be fielded for ANY supposed Apple "innovation". Sure, non of these devices and shops had the reach and financial clout of Apple, but THEY invented and innovated.
Apple in turn copied what it considered good ideas (they where good ideas) and took over, using their financial clout to out-advertise and outsell those who's ideas it was using. In fact in many cases it ended up suing those original Innovators for being in competition with their Product (so what happens now is nothing new, it "Standard Operating Procedure" for Apple). Their corporate behaviour matches B*se, take others ideas, make copies, patent them and then sue the hell out of the competition and pay top dollars to Lawyers, so you get the law ˙our way"...
My point is that Apple does not do: "Invention is really about seeing the possibilities, and the extant possibilities are a function of the fabric of society and technology at a given time." Others do that.
What Apple does and has always done well is to take OTHERS inventions and innovations and to hone and polish them a little and then sell the proverbial manure out of them. It arguably does this much better than any other technology company. It should continue to do so.
It is Apple's "Sucess Formula", quoth he Steve Jobs:
"Good artists copy. Great artists steal." (SJ quoting Dali)
"And we've always been shameless, about stealing great ideas." (this is a true Jobsism, not something stolen from others)
By doing this Apple has always forced others to raise their game or go out of business. So as long as open competition is assured people like Apple force global improvements for the whole market and thus benefit everyone.
Where this becomes an problem is when Apple cries "foul" if others play the same game it does and beat Apple at it. It becomes a problem when it tries to stifle competition.
It becomes a problem when Steve Jobs pulls a Khrushchev and banging his metaphorical shoe on the metaphorical rostrum insists that Apple will "bury" Android. Now Android is in effect open source, open standard, fundamentally free and based on Linux, so it can run on anything, if ported, even Apple Hardware. It becomes a problems when Apple then misappropriates Shareholders money to fund such a personal vendetta in the courts, to the tune of 100's of Millions, instead of investing this money into better products.
Even more ironic is that Apple's OSX and iOS has a lot of DNA that harks back to open source software like BSD, GNU, Mach and even Linux (shock, horror). Pot, Kettle, Black?
It becomes a problems when Apple sues others on the basis of Patents that are invalid due to PRIOR ART (look it up, it is a technical/legal term) by the very people it is suing, especially HTC and Motorola.
Samsung is a mega multi, they can afford to bleed a little (or as far as I care a lot) "for the cause" and quite frankly, the whole trial is bizarre. Samsungs own tech without which Apple would have no worthwhile processors in their iCopy sevices (yup, Samsung not only makes most of the Displays for Apple, but also Memory, CPU's and other stuff, one might say 70% of the electronics BOM cost of an iCopy piece is Samsungs).
If Apple went elsewhere they would be years behind the curve, just like the cheap sub 100 USD Chinese Android Smartphones using "vanilla" ARM Cortex Processors. Samsung can simply stop supplying Apple (though the commercial impact on Samsung may be greater than even the exorbitant 2.5 Billion US Dollar fines Apple is seeking) and watch Apple struggle and wriggle while it's own devices clober Apple six ways to Sunday.
So what we see in Court is a performance, it is an art form, a play, a farce, not any substance. Yet Apple filed the suits, not Samsung.
Fundamentally Apple now does much worse what Microsoft was accused for (rightly) in the 90's, it makes M$ look the "good guys" (heck, what kind of a change) and fundamentally Apple are the Kopy Kats (arguably they copy with style) and the ones who wish to stifle innovation by any and all means in the interest of preserving their near monopoly, no matter how much they present themselves in their advertising as the actual innovators.
Ciao T
Sometimes I'd like to be the water
sometimes shallow, sometimes wild.
Born high in the mountains,
even the seas would be mine.
(Translated from the song "Aus der ferne" by City)
Follow Ups:
"When I say Disk based I am referring to the hard drive music player, give me some credit."
OK, your account has been credited... It just never crossed my mind that you didn't mean CD's!
You certainly have followed the field far closer than I have, I thought that it went straight from Walkman to iPod. My interest in listening to music afoot is nil so cassette or CD players did the job in the office. My interest in Apple is nil also as I never met one I really liked but have used quite a few. This iPad is the most likable but it can be frustrating as all get out and that largely revolves around it's lack of file management. I'm hooked on tablets for couch computing and when I got this one it really was the only viable choice, but I bet 18 months from now there will be some serious options. XPmobile?
Rick
Rick,I started listening to streaming music on my PC in the mid/late 90's, while working late at the office, some music box site with questionable legality. This was still via a DIAL UP LINK (but an unmetered one) as our Site did not yet have permanent connection to the net, that came 6 month later for the X400 (Route 400 E-Mail system). I was managing the local network back then.
I have followed anything in "computer music" quite closely since. Early hard drive and/or flash based Portable Juke Boxes came from Seahan (MPMan - 1997), Diamond (Rio - 1998), Compaq/Hango (Personal Jukebox 6GB HDD - 1998), Creative (Nomad 6GB HDD - 2000).
Tablet computers where championed by Microsoft and several manufacturers had ultra-compact (usually 13" Screen) Notebooks that allowed the screen to be folded down and thus became a "slate", some even made keyboard less pure slates.
Microsoft and HTC also did a lot of work on Touchscreen Smartphones, I had several over the Years since 2004, now I have a Droid Phone and a Droid 10" Tablet (not Samsung - I'm too cheap to spend money on Badges).
What you can take away from this is that Apple's advertising is so effective that it actually created to you the impression that all these items where invented by Apple (rather than copied from others).
Quite similar to what B*se has achieved in the Audio World, where everyone and their redneck cousin from the Ozark Mountains believes that B*se is actually HiFi, innovates and often that B*se has invented HiFi...
What is perhaps worse is that Apple and it's most devoted fans believe their own hype...
Ciao T
Sometimes I'd like to be the water
sometimes shallow, sometimes wild.
Born high in the mountains,
even the seas would be mine.
(Translated from the song "Aus der ferne" by City)
Edits: 08/16/12 08/16/12
Interesting, I was oblivious to the early digital audio gear, thanks for the historical perspective.
On the other hand I am generally familiar with the computers you mentioned and once considered the convertible hp. The main reason I bought this device, the iPad, was because it didn't have a fan. Even better the only moving parts are four switches. Every laptop I've had has had fan and/or hard drive failure and usually display hinge problems. I really wanted a Windows "netbook" size thing with no fan but apparently they don't exist. I marched into my dealer a couple years ago and said "show me your fan-less portables. Well that didn't take long since the only ones he had were Apples and this thing cost half what their net-bookish laptop did. And I was curious what a tablet would be like.
Now that I'm used to it I've found most of the drawbacks are SW. the only HW thing I really long for is size, a 12" screen would be a lot better for eyes and fingers of my age. The SW drawbacks are enormous, compared to say, Windows, this is really a weak sister, but it's an appliance, not a computer. Even the spelling checker sucks and those were perfected decades ago. BUT I love, love, love not having a fan! Guess I'm like a one-issue voter, but I got the main thing I wanted and oddly enough, despite fanless being my driving specification, I actually appreciate it even more than I thought I would!
There is, of course, no perfect form-factor and while I'd like to have a real keyboard I also appreciate how well this works for reading.
I know that Apple has a very loyal following, but I hope this is my last one, their philosophy just doesn't jibe well with me at any level except for the fan thing...
Rick
Rick,> The main reason I bought this device, the iPad, was because it
> didn't have a fan. Even better the only moving parts are four switches.
> Every laptop I've had has had fan and/or hard drive failure and
> usually display hinge problems.Yes, I ran into these a lot too. For many Years I had a strict hierarchy applying to any Laptop for my use. My favorite top 3 Laptop Brand where Toshiba, Toshiba and Toshiba, in that precise order, but only their metal shell top of the line business machines from the last year (so all the reliability, performance etc, but a normal price).
In recent years Toshiba's star has waned and I now prefer IBM/Lenovo T Series Stink Pads. I can think of many curses for their inadequate battery life, poor quality displays, fugly design and so on. Toshiba does all that better.
But the display hinges don't break, neither do the hard drives (some smart software and a G-Sensor see to that) and on mains power they have enough power to run pretty much anything I can think of. And they are like the ruddy Energiser Bunny, they keep running, running and running, in the precise way most others don't.
And if you drown the Keyboard in Red-Wine or Whiskey-Coke so badly the build in safeguards for that eventuality fail (or your two year old daughter likes to pry off the keys), you can actually get a replacement and fit it yourself very easily.
Oh. They have fan's, but they are VERY QUIET and in casual "Couch potato" use rarely even come on. With normal background noise levels in a quiet room I have not heard them in many years.
I absolutely HATE my Lenovo Stinkpad. I do. But I need a laptop that works and survives the war-zone called living room with a 2YO and all the travelling. Very little else does.
I tried others, again and again.
I recently had an Asus that was great in some ways, > 8 Hours Battery Life in low power mode with usable speed, very light, Super Fast CPU with great 3D GFX on Mains Power that made all the CAD, Simulation and PCB Layout software I use fly.
It lasted less than 9 Month and was looking tatty after 6. But at least it was not hinges that broke, like they did 3 times in one year on a Dell I owned...
> I really wanted a Windows "netbook" size thing with no fan but
> apparently they don't exist. I marched into my dealer a couple
> years ago and said "show me your fan-less portables. Well that
> didn't take long since the only ones he had were Apples and this
> thing cost half what their net-bookish laptop did.Original iPad. Biggest issue I have with the bleedin lot, it cannot even surf the web properly. Most popular websites use Flash. On iPad, no-go. I do want more than play angry birds and play MP3's.
> Now that I'm used to it I've found most of the drawbacks are SW.
I have a 10" Droid Tab. The issues I find are hardware.
The screen is too small.
On screen Keyboard for serious work, puleeese!
If I add Keyboard and screen in my travel bag I might as well take the Stinkpad.
So I carry the Tablet for "light" traveling (read e-mail but answer only life/death stuff, read Books and Mags, Play Games, essential websurfing - like where is the nearest starbucks and on long journeys load up some Movies), but I carry both the Tab and my Stinkpad for serious travelling.
Nowadays the Stinkpad stays at the hotel while I take the Tab out though (and my smartphone).
What I really want is a 14" Screen thin Slate that I can carry around, which has enough poke on external power to run CAD and an easily attached thin and light keyboard. Can someone PLEASE tell Microsoft to stop copying Apple's wrong form factor and give the Surface some serious 'roids. I think I'll get a 10"surface anyway.
As frequent traveler on both long hauls and overnight trains I'd also appreciate 16 Hours battery life, for light use. Pretty please?
> I know that Apple has a very loyal following,
Yes, basically Apple should be listed as "Cult".
Ciao T
Sometimes I'd like to be the water
sometimes shallow, sometimes wild.
Born high in the mountains,
even the seas would be mine.
(Translated from the song "Aus der ferne" by City)
Edits: 08/16/12
( > BUT I love, love, love not having a fan! Guess I'm like a one-issue voter,)
A NO-fan boy.
Bill
Well put...
Why are GUI's so "in" when words are so much more fun?
Rick
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