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Gang,
As you may know I design and run all of Wavelength Audio stuff. I had 165 employees at my last job, for me this is the way I handle things. Therefore I count on my dealers to take some of the lifting.
Here is an interesting story, that maybe I am not seeing clearly enough.
A customer buys a used USB DAC from one of my dealers. The unit was in mint condition and only used for about a month. The dealer sold the unit to a Doctor of Music Theory from the UK who took up residence here for 33% off retail. The customer was told that if he wanted to upgrade or trade in the unit for something else at anytime that the dealer would offer good trade in. A lot of my dealers do this especially with USB DACS as many upgrade inside the line.
Yesterday I received an email from the customer saying the dealer would not buy back the unit. He no longer wanted it as his electronics from the UK was finally coming over and he wanted to sell it back to the dealer. Not knowing what was going on I asked what the rental agreement was as he has had the unit about a year now. He got furious and said it was not a rental but the dealer agreed to buy it back.
Talking to the dealer, he said as all dealers in this case would say that he offers trade in on items for another sale but he is not in the practice of just buying back a unit.
Now the customer is cursing me out saying I should buy the unit back. Or in his words:
"I certainly won't be offering up any personal recommendations on behalf of Wavelength -- hit them in the pocket where it really hurts -- should anyone be seeking a recommendation."
Am I out of line or is the dealer in thinking that this is kind of crazy?
Your thoughts, thanks
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin
Follow Ups:
Gordon,
I have read your posts regualarly as I am interested in a DAC that utilizes USB implementation with the 32 bit Sabre DAC. I have always felt that you have had a level headed approach. That being said, I agree with others that the agreement was between the dealer and the customer. In all fairness to the customer we do not know what the deal was between these two gentlemen. I do not know how well you know this particular dealer. I would try and find out what was said. If you have no luck and just feel that it is not worth one bad experience tarnishing your namie then If I were in your shoes I would buy the unit back minus a 10-20 percent restocking fee and sell the unit as a demo or b stock unit.
The guys on glue . Never heard of a shop buying back a product after any amount of time .
... I’d help the customer.
Smile
Sox
... is non-existent, as far as the information in the original post is concerned.
Nevertheless, some here have seized the opportunity to spew their ludicrous xenophobic drivel. Predictable, I suppose, but no credit to the forum or the majority.
His expectation is unreasonable.
Here's what Joe Eckstein at Berkshire Record Outlet told me long ago about difficult customers -- like those who keep returning stuff, including cut-out LPs with the slightest warp, ticks, etc.
Cut them some slack if they do this once or twice. Third time or so, give them whatever they want. Satisfy them completely, no matter how unreasonable the request.
Then cut them off your mailing list and "lose" any future orders. Don't charge them for what you don't ship of course, just "lose" the orders. If they complain, say something like, "We think you'll be happier if you don't do business with us."
I believe lots of mail order merchants follow this general rule. In fact, I know they do. As a direct marketing consultant, I tell them to.
The customer is not always right. On the other hand, in this instance, we have not heard the customer's story.
There was an article about that on-line savings bank (the "orange" one with three initials - eye-en-gee).
They revealed how many accounts they closed each month due to "difficult" customers. And that included ones with "excessive" account traffic.
It was in the low thousands.
Gang,
Thanks for all the comments. It looks like we found a dealer who was looking for a Crimson to upgrade and use as their demo piece so it looks like everyone will be happy.
I am sorry if using my company name was some how advertising. But I felt it was a good idea as the differential in treatment on something like this for a large company as compared to a small one needed to be applied. Heck I make each of my products. The reaction for my company compared to maybe some company who has everything made in some far away place and they just usher the stuff out the door would be different... I would think.
Thanks again for all your time!
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin
Make your policy and stop vacillating. Find some integrity with your rules. I'm getting a little bent, actually, because I don't understand how a person could question their own practices under these circumstances. I don't see any way of interpreting bad behavior outside of the customer in your story. If I didn't know better, I'd say you were typing with pride.
Maybe you just don't know it.
Like kieth_d said... You won't find a single entry on this board that doesn't blame the customer. So how did you miss that?
As far as advertising goes, I am getting concerned about you as a manufacturer. I wouldn't want to get stuck with a wishy washy party on the other end. I'm serious. Show some respect for yourself (and stop trying). Portray objective skill. You don't want advertising like this.
You shouldn't be so hard on yourself here when posting about your business.
Very self effacing, and not in the least self serving, as noted previously.
Glad to hear that it worked out in at least a satisfactory situation from your perspective. I wouldn't sweat the details. I understood it from the perspective it was intended.
-------------------------
dj on www.area24radio.com Show is "A-440...and Beyond"
We have 2 turntables and a microphone.
Did the dealer ever quote the guy a buy-back price? As a customer, I assume these sorts of deals involve me spending additional money at said dealer, within a reasonable length of time, and trading the unit in for a similar type of unit (i.e. speakers for speakers, TT for TT, etc.).
Sounds like the customer is trying to bully his way into a free long term loaner unit with the threat of public (internet) complaints if he doesn't get his way. IMO the only thing the guy is entitled to is the ol' Bronx Cheer.
....... Piss Off! Being British, he will understand.
Vision. This guy is delusional.
A lot of UK hi-fi buyers are like that. The UK is filled with barrack-room lawyers, rights without responsibility types who feel it's their moral duty to complain about everything.
Unfortunately, the kind of people who do this in the UK really, really know how to make trouble in a passive-aggressive kind of manner. The latest one is the guy who didn't get the refund he wanted on his MP3-ripping player, so he took the company to the Advertising Standards Authority because it 'misleadingly implies it's acceptable to copy CDs' (copying music - even if you retain the disc - is notionally copyright theft in the UK). So now the company needs to find new advertising and the hi-fi industry in the UK can't talk about ripping music anymore.
The other problem is some of them don't back down even if they get the answer they want. If you give in to this guy's demands, the best you get is that he goes away. More likely, he'll just start a hate campaign, anyway. Fortunately, he's pretty far from home and you don't sell into the UK, so he's not got that much firepower.
Tell him to get stuffed.
... what with being French and all, but this is a huge load of arse!!!!! Absolutely ridiculous.
In any case, Gordon, your customer is a looney, and it's got nothing to do with where he's from.
JB
What part is ridiculous?
Do you mean the ASA ruling - no, that's happened (see link).
Do you mean that the UK people aren't all about rights, not about responsibilities - we might have to agree to disagree. But you don't live in the UK and I do. We get this all the time.
I DO live in the UK.
Generalizing this behavior as a typical British one is what I do not agree with.
Gordon's client is obviously an idiot, and I've seen them all over the world.
JB
I judge countries by the number of lawyers in the population, on the simple basis that more lawyers=more litigation.
The US is still ahead of everyone else, with one lawyer for every 320 people. The UK has one lawyer per 694 people. France has 2461 people per lawyer and Japan has 8195 people per lawyer.
South Park wouldn't have had Tom Cruise say "'I'll sue you in England" if the UK wasn't the birth-place of 'libel tourism'.
Finally, I see your point and raise you Grumbletext. Says it all, really.
> with barrack-room lawyers, rights without responsibility types who feel it's their moral duty to complain about everything. <
Wow, sounds like the ACLU.....
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
UK residents think that if they complain long enough + loud enough that not only right will be on their side; but that you will LISTEN + COMPLY to whatever beef they have
Cultural difference: ignore him
GW
Point your dealer's customer to Audiogon (it's quite likely he has never heard of it), and say that this is where people in the USA typically sell used items (which is what he has), and that high quality items sell fast at a reasonable price.
The customer and his demands are out of line. You have done nothing wrong.
I have worked in sales/customer service/client services all my life and I learned from some very smart people that sometimes you have to fire customers.
The old "customer is always right" line is no longer financially viable.
Sorry, but some idiot from the UK who feels he can use something for a year and then force you or a dealer to buy it back is beyond the pale.
Thank god 95% or more of consumers of low volume, specialist products actually have a brain. The other 5% cannot take us hostage.
Just my two cents.
He's clearly not pulling a full stringer of fish behind the boat.
As a very customer-friendly dealer:
A presale in-home demo, or 15-day moneyback if not happy? Sure! Nobody's likely to take you up on the moneyback, anyway, with a quality product. Builds customer confidence, customer loyalty.
Take it back for trade-up to a better DAC, or trade-in on other gear the dealer sells? Sure! Moves new product & builds customer loyalty. Probably not going to see full value on the trade for anything owned for more than a few months. (They pro-rate tires, right?)
Sell it on a small margin, get no interim business from the guy, then be expected to buy it back at full price, well and truly used, ONE YEAR later??? Ummmm... nope.
Possibly a different story if the guy's bought a boatload of other stuff in the interim, and you're willing to take a little financial hit in order to keep a good customer happy. Only if you're willing, though. I see no obligation here.
As a very customer-oriented manufacturer:
If my dealer told me he had offered to buy the DAC back at full price, anytime, no questions asked, but was now backing out on the deal, I'd probably step up and buy the DAC back. I'd also drop the dealer, because he's either nuts, or a liar, or both.
If the dealer tells me anything else, I'm siding with my dealer, and telling Dr. Music Guy: "I'm really sorry, but I'm not going to be able to help you out here." Any further communications from the guy would be cheerfully ignored. There's no point you having a bad day over someone this unreasonable. I don't think I'd tell him to "Go pee up a rope", though, because that would serve no useful purpose.
My own livelihood depends on keeping my customers happy, and I'm usually pretty good at it. If someone's not happy & it's remotely possible that the responsibility lies with my staff or me, I'll go far out of my way to try to make things right. Some folks are just not happy, no matter what. I used to worry about them, too... but life's just too short.
Life's much better if you caffeinate your squirrel
I knew a guy who made a habit of acting this way to businesses he delt with. When I asked him why he acted like an A****le, he replied that he usually was able to get his way. This is just a form of bullying. It seems to me he has tried to intimidate you and your company with threats. I think he needs a lesson in American justice and a nice threatning letter from a lawyer delivered by a nasty looking bail bondsman! (I once had a letter of intent delivered by a local motorcycle gang, point was made.)
(Worshiping at the Universal Music Altar)
The customer was told that if he wanted to upgrade or trade in the unit for something else at anytime that the dealer would offer good trade in.
What part of the agreement does the customer not understand?.....
The statement does not say in any stretch of the imagination the dealer would buy the DAC back.
Also when did you become the dealer's mother?
of what he sold it for. If the customer complains, tell him the value was "adjusted" based on his initial request. ;-)
It's all solid state, except for the tubes.
.
?
Edits: 02/29/20
He is wrong in asking or demanding this. He sounds like more like a"Doctor of Proctology".
Tell him to go pound sand.
Best,
Bob
Gordon,
You are an honest businessman and are probably surprised by this customers irrational and irate behavior, and like me would not fancy dealing with this person at all.
First of all the term, “ The customer is always right” does hold some truth even if stretched to it’s limits.
You have a few options available to you as an honest business person. Keeping in mind
while you deal with him you may have to resort to the services of a lawyer if things go terribly wrong. Which may not be too far off from your description of this chap.
Keeping your lawyers recommendations in the back of your mind is just to temper your responses during your communications with him. Email creates a paper trail that can bite you if you are not careful.
First response:
Offer him a full refund. (your choice)
Second response:
Tell him you or your dealers do not offer full refunds and walk away. (also your choice)
Third response: (this one is up to him)
Offer to refund 66% of his purchase price if the unit is in good cosmetic and operating condition, subject to a full inspection.
Send him a letter of Non-Disclosure that will make his refund dependant on his not disclosing the reason for his dissatisfaction, his refund or it’s dollar amount, or any information regarding his dealings with Wavelength at all.
Have him sign the Non-Disclosure agreement, have it notarized, and return it to you along with the DAC, stating that you will test and inspect the device and then return 66% of what he paid. Please state that you are only doing his in an effort to maintain good customer relations.
My two cents
Good Luck,
Dave
I would actually advise a much more graphic option but as many have said the deal was with the dealer, not the manufacturer and after a year with no requested "trade-up" involved he has no claim what-so-ever.
Good riddance to bad rubbish...
Let's see...the dealer sells a preowned unit with the offer to "... trade it back in at a good price..." and the so-called customer decides to morph that phraseology into "buy the unit back..." once he has gotten all the use of it that he needs. Self absorbed douche bags like this deserve no courteous treatment and, as many others have already pointed out, will prove to be an endless liability down the line.This kinda takes me back to my old AGon dispute resolution days.
Edits: 04/08/11
It is unreasonable for a customer to expect that a dealer would buy back a piece of equipment for the original selling price without a trade up if there was no prearranged agreement to do so. Basically the customer is expecting a free unconditional one year loan.
The customer should just list it on AA classifieds or Audiogon for the price he paid. If it is unsold he can keep lowering the price until he finds the item's true value as determined by the marketplace.
I personally have little patience for entitled fools of this type.
The 'customer', in the is case, hardly qualifies for the term, as all he was looking for was a long-term loan till his equipment was delivered from the UK.
OTOH, the guy could just as easily list the item on AudioGon and get about 66% of retail pretty easily as Wavelength Audio gear has a very good reputation.
You might also advise him to do so quickly before the badmouthing he threatens to proceed with lowers the resale value of Wavelenght gear!
see my post below.
Well to do and well connected customers can and do make things difficult for dealers and manufacturers.
Unless you don't have confidence in how your dealer is handling the situation you should refer the customer back to him. Maybe together you and your dealer can work something up for this special customer.
That is fairly bold talk from someone whose actions could be misinterpreted as possibly fraud and extortion but is likely a misunderstanding.
A politely worded response is likely in order. The offer of trading the unit in for another purchase, may still be on the table but is at the discretion of the dealer. Hopefully his evaluation of the product would be on the product's performance. Then I would wait and pray that his students are spared from his unpleasant behaviors.
-------------------------
dj on www.area24radio.com Show is "A-440...and Beyond"
We have 2 turntables and a microphone.
In the long run, in your situation, I would back my dealers. From what I have heard and read about your Dacs and amps, your equipment sales won't be hurt by one complainer. I'd back the dealer.
"What did the Romans ever do for us?"
In this case the purchase arrangement is strictly between the dealer and the buyer. You, as the manufacturer, are not involved, unless the dealer sells nothing but Wavelength Audio products or unless you specifically offer a trade up policy for Wavelength Audio buyers.
Nowadays the only thing I want from manufacturers are excellent products at affordable price, a commitment to quality, warranty service and repairs when necessary and a reasonable 30-day return policy when no local dealer within 30 miles exists.
I don’t see why a manufacturer would ever be involved with used products but if that’s your desire I would suggest a classified posting on your website for previously owned, refurbished, demo or clearance Wavelength Audio products.
Not have directly answered his email other than to say I will get in touch with the dealer you bought it from and find out the history and see if I can help you.
It seems clear the customers motives are potentially shaky as he bought the used product and now 30 days later is going to use his gear that finally arrived from the UK. Perhaps he was looking for a "free rental" of sorts. You can share that thought with the dealer but not the customer. After you tell the dealer that this guy looks "shaky" tell him the best solution is to refund the trouble maker and move on. Even if the dealer has a clearly stated refund policy in the shop and on the receipt and this customer is not compliant with that its a no win. Unless of course the dealer doesn't want to do that and was within his rights and had a posted policy.
So how much $$ are we talking here anyway? There are a variety of price points as I look on the net for the various USB DAC's you offer, I see anywhere from $1750 to $10K new. So that plays a part as well. I don't think the company name is in any danger if this dealer does not want to refund (again especially if he has/had a clear stated policy) This issue is really about the dealer, NOT the manufacturer. Not all transactions can be smooth. If the amount is tough for the dealer to cope with financially then he shouldn't refund but if this dealer is doing well and can afford he should just refund and get rid of the guy.
I think the biggest lesson you can learn as a manufacturer is to avoid getting in the middle but still try to seem to at least try and help the customer. I would never promise anything at all until knowing all the facts.
Good luck!
ET
not 30 days. The guy had the unit for one year. Totally unreasonable to expect the dealer to buy it back.
and missed that line. We knew he was being demanding but yes a year is really a joke. No go! Sorry for missing that I was at work in a hurry.
ET
A dealer can't make money buying equipment back unless the buyer is trading up. The buyer is not thinking straight coming to either you or the dealer for a buy back.
The customer is unreasonable to expect the dealer to buy back the unit straight up with no trade-in or upgrade deal. Assuming what you say is true, he apparently attempted to use the dealer as a lending library while waiting for his own equipment to pass through customs. What dealer would have sold to him and given him a buy-back promise if they had known this up front? And now he's angry at you? I would simply ignore this jerk. You owe him NOTHING, not even the dignity of further response.
I will take the opposite side of the argument: "No, the customer is correct! The dealer should buy the unit back at once regardless of what either party (allegedly) said!"
Who's the dealer, since you're being so forthcoming about the entire matter?
I agree that names/details are not needed - we don't even have to know this is actually happening. The answers can be generic enough, such as to use terms like "mfr, dealer, customer, trade-in, etc"... I think the question could have been put generically as well.
Perhaps Mr. Rankin is anxiously anticipating a flaming customer on this board?
Old Gordie isn't new at this game.
Which is why I am sure you are wrong.
Gordon,
I work for a manufacturer, albeit in a different industry, who operates through a dealer network. While we offer a limited warranty we never deal financially with the end user and always through the dealer. As Ralph indicated the financial consideration was between the end user and the dealer and NOT between the end user and the manufacturer. Any communication with this individual should be done through the dealer, as that what is what the the price difference between wholesale and retail is there for.
Best wishes for a successful resolution.
Mike
It was *not* a loaded question.The deal existed between the dealer and the customer if there was a deal at all. From what we see here, the deal was to do a trade in **if the customer is trading up the line**. That is a common practice in the industry.
However in this case the customer decided to modify the deal after the fact- no trade in at all, just buy my unit back, after a year a use, thank-you very much. Naturally the dealer did not go for it.
So then the customer wanted Wavelength to buy it, which is also ridiculous since the deal was not made with Wavelength at all, nor did Wavelength ever get **paid** full retail- Wavelength was only paid dealer cost. So its entirely unreasonable on the customer's part to expect that Wavelength would have to pay out on something like that.
Edits: 04/07/11
That's how I define a loaded question: One in which the questioner knows perfectly well what the answer is, but asks for one reason or another besides getting the answer. Which he knows.
Perhaps you have a different definition. Or perhaps I have misused the term, "loaded question."
I had something like this happen to me years ago. In my case the dealer recommended treating the tube sockets of a circuit board with a 'contact enhancer', which might have worked if they had not literally doused the circuit board, thus contaminating it. When the equipment quit working on that account, the customer wanted *us* to buy the unit back, even though he had bought it through the dealer, and even *watched* the dealer proceed to destroy his equipment! I had to explain to him that he did the deal with the dealer, not us.
Nevertheless whenever I run into a conflict situation I always wonder what my role has been, 'am I nuts?', what I could have done better, that sort of thing. I am according Gordon the possibility of something similar. I see it as kind of normal that a person might want to get some feedback when things get crazy like that.
I think, most charitably towards him, and I have no beef with his products, is that he wanted re-inforcement for what he already knew perfectly well.
But I suppose your interpretation could be correct.
No, I didn't; this website didn't exist back then. But its something that I have considered since. There is another aspect- and that is that this might also be a move to head the guy off at the pass. The internet is pretty powerful- it kept me my company when there was a nasty takeover attempt back in 2004.
It's not just a query. He knows his policy. He knows the answer to his "question."
Well he certainly knows now...
I ran into a situation last year where a speaker failed while our amps were being used. The problem was that the tweeter circuit failed, but the tweeter was OK. Now anyone who knows about speakers knows that the crossover for a tweeter does not fail from excessive amplifier power without the tweeter also failing, but try telling this to a millionaire that thinks he knows better!
So I took the issue to the web, knowing full well the truth of the matter. I refrained from naming the speaker (one that retails in excess of $50K), but otherwise posed the details as accurately as I could. In this day and age of the 'web, if you let something fester like that it can have a way of blowing up if you don't handle it with some decorum. The end result was I had a thread I could point to in case the guy was wanting to believe that I didn't know what I was talking about.
But OTOH I really did want to know if anyone out there had experienced some situation where an amp could damage a tweeter crossover without also doing damage to the tweeter. I put myself through college by working at a consumer electronics service department (started working there in 1974) and while I had never heard of things happening that way, I had to wonder what my role was even then. So if I can allow *myself* that option, at least from my point of view I should also accord that to others.
However, the short answer is yes, there is a PR aspect.
That should not have been so difficult.
How may dealers do you think sell his products along with Harbeth and Merlin? Can't be very many...
The fairest of fair practices with the dealer bending over backwards like a pretzel could not offer a deal like this guy wants.
It is just not in anyones' book to expect a deal like that.
I would amount to giving away products for years and getting nothing whatsoever for it.
You are not doing anything wrong. The guy is clearly off.
Sorry this happened.
Not knowing what was going on I asked what the rental agreement was as he has had the unit about a year now.
.
I was on a quick break at work at made an over site.
ET
Now i have the luxury of not having to go back to work!! Whoo Hoo.
The guy is nuts! Ignore him.
It's the dealers problem (unless its a repair)not the manufacturers.
I sure as would not expect anything like that.
Again, maybe he misunderstood the dealer? Have you heard from the dealer on this?
D
unbelievable. Curious to know how he'd react if one of his students from the previous year insisted he "buy back" the knowledge he gave them. Very unreasonable guy, ..May be the best customer you never had.
Offer him 1/2 the price he paid for it..surely he doesn't expect his full purchase price back?
Rodney Gold
The customer is nuts. He's doing you a favor by not being a Wavelength customer. Just another pain-in-the-ass who feels the world owes him something.
Off with him.
Your dealer did a fine job.
Show the guy the door.
Dan.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
I agree. This is a customer worth firing. Seems like all he wants to do is take advantage of someone to fit his own needs.
See ya. Dave
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