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In Reply to: RE: And conversely... posted by Presto on December 10, 2010 at 10:08:51
However, here's what made positive impact in MY system, to MY ears:
- Oyaide electrical outlets
- Oyaide electrical outlet cover
- Stillpoints and Rollerblocks isolation footers
- power cords, interconnects, speaker cables
- power conditioner
- Power Wraps on power cords and interconnects
Would you equal any of the above to the color of my socks?
If we get a little more serious - where do you draw the line between worthwhile tweaks and "voodoo"? How do you know it's "voodoo" if you've never tried it? Is not understanding how it works enough to declare it "voodoo"?
Follow Ups:
It's more like understanding how it works is enough to declare it voodoo.
There are mysteries in audio engineering, yes -- things that aren't understood or in which we haven't done enough research to have audibility thresholds. That IMO is one of the things that makes audio fun and challenging.
But there are also times when you know enough about how something works to know that sonic differences are almost certainly imagined.
Your list - tweaks of importance in the "YMMV" category. Even if Oyaide plugs just have better build quality and contact mating, they could be offered as a "cost-no-object" device. I've seen the plugs. The additional build quality is a given - without even listen to them in the system. It's accepted gold connectors are better due to reduced oxidation. Why then are not improved contacts in electrical devices not also of value? Again. YMMV.
On one extreme end, we get "measures the same - sounds the same" aka "the range of measurements we have now are sufficient to account for any and all sonic perceptions" which is complete objectivist-extremist bunk. We don't know how to measure things to account for all sonic perceptions. If we did, we could create the perfect audio system (and recording methods) that would transport every listener of every song to the original event every time.
On the other end, we get the parlor tricks. The freezer tricks, faceplate screw slot alignment, color on carpet (different coloring agents in the carpet affects dielectric strength you see), Belt tricks, and small little dollhouse-sized teacup thingies that magically re-arrange all of the mangled sonic nuances of airborne sound. You know. Subjectivist voodoo religion.
A guy could put a pebble from the alleyway out back on his coffee table and claim it to impart the "standard array" of common audiophile improvements that are "far from subtle that his wife could hear in the next room" and then market it in three colors:
red - agressive sound. $1000
blue - mellow sound $1500
white - virgin-pee / white-as-snow pure sound $5000
Some here would own all three, to match their mood that day or just to make sure their psychological bias mechanisms (imaginations) are still fully functional. (They'll hear the agressive red ones, the mellow blue ones, and the pure white ones and know that they have THE GIFT. ha ha ha). That's all I am saying here. Nobody said the devices / products you were referring to were DEFINITIVELY "voodoo". The plugs are different than cheap stock plugs. The isolators and couplers DO make differences to mechanical aspects and vibration. Microphonics CAN affect electronics, especially - but not limited to - tubes. Some guys think living too close to a freeway causes microphonics. I say it causes noisey car sounds more than anything.
When voodoo tweaks are not audible, they are attibuted to being "very very small veils being lifted" and the reason that they can't be heard by SOME is because of tinear-itis or an insufficiently resolving system.
In other words, bullshit.
So if you have yet to align the screw slots in your faceplate receptacles, wear only blue socks in your listening room, or have not yet purchased my "Quantum Pebbles" based on psycho-color technology, then you're not a tweako subjectivist yet. But you might be a bit neurotic if you think everyone here THINKS you are a tweako subjectivist. It's just that you tend to call ANYONE who questions ANY tweak for ANY reason a staunch objectivist when in fact most guys here are more middle ground "YMMV" types who avoid boxing themselves into the dogma of either extreme for any substantial period of time.
I know I'm not in either camp and know that those who want to stick me in one camp or another tend to be "black and white" thinkers who perhaps believe that everything in life can be boxed into one of two extremes.
I'm more of a "shades of grey" guy myself. Being a DIY speaker designer I have to do a lot of measurements. The stuff I do you can't do "by ear". I tend to listen to music by ear though. I've measured music ten different ways but the results don't ever sound any good. They LOOK fantastic on paper there, but only make a sound when I crumple them into a ball.
Cheers,
Presto
Where is the " "measures the same - sounds the same" crowd that is the bane of many audio asylum posters? Where do they hang out? So far I have yet to see anyone use that statement without some very important provisos. Sounds to me that phrase has become an ubiquitous strawman argument for those defending themselves againt blind testing and measurements proponents.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Only assembles in Subj. Vs. Obj. debates. The two sides immediately seem to go to extremes: "I know what I hear and I am above bias in all forms" versus "if it's not measurable or audible in a DBT it's imaginary".
These are theoretical definitions of extremist viewpoints, nothing more. So perhaps the word "crowd" was not the best choice of words.
Cheers,
Presto
> "measures the same - sounds the same"...So far I have yet to see anyone use that statement without some very important provisos <
And yet the most important proviso is the one they always omit... simply adding the words "to me" to the end of that declaration. If they did, there would be no argument. No one would demand proof of the claim.
> Where is the " "measures the same - sounds the same" crowd that is the bane of many audio asylum posters? Where do they hang out? <
Most have been bounced from PropHead, although a few remain on AA. HydrogenAudio... well, I think pretty much ALL the posters there are believers in that credo. But most of you folks... er... I mean, THOSE folks - lol... won't admit it. And why should they? It's a ridiculous claim and if they claim nothing, they don't have to prove anything under their own silly rules of engagement.
> Sounds to me that phrase has become an ubiquitous strawman argument for those defending themselves againt blind testing and measurements proponents. <
Nope - simple K.I.S.S Principle... it's an argument against everything sounding the same.
Do you have a link to some of these "measures the same - sounds the same" threads on HA?
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Sure do. www.hydrogenaudio.org. Pick a thread, any thread.
LOL.
But from what I've seen of Hydrogen Audio, it's more like "ABX's the same, sounds the same."
HydrogenAudio DOES NOT accept measured differences as a proof of audible differences. So, correct statement would be not"Measures the same - sounds the same"
, but rather
"Measures the same - sounds the same. Even if it measures different - it still sounds the same".
Please adjust your position accordingly.
Edits: 12/13/10
Hydrogenaudio... Measurements May Differ But The Sound Is The Same.
Sure would make life simpler if I could buy into their science fiction. But these damned ears won't let me!
There are many things that I am absolutely certain will not make an audible change to my system, I don't need to try them all.
None are on your list, but I've read about many of them on these forums.
Like another poster said - There are many at both extremes.
Hate to say it, but women's moods are affected by lunar cycles. As to the color of socks, there might be a question of which is the cause and which is the effect. :-)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
What I left out of that list of tweaks that work, is Single Malt scotch.However, to my dismay and shame, I was NEVER able to hear an audible difference between, for instance, Aberlour 16, Clynelish 14, and Deanston 12. The only difference I WAS able to hear is of quantitative nature, and inverse at that - i.e. the more of the tweak is applied, the more everything sounds the same.
Right to the point where an album by certain band sounds exactly the same as different album by different band!
Edits: 12/10/10 12/10/10
Oh, man! Does that sound familiar (no pun intended)!
Jim
I don't think that you have paid much attention over the years to all the nutty stuff posted by 'philes.
I have some magic rocks I'd like to sell.
Jim
perchance?
nt
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