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about something the other day as I was listening to my system and enjoying my morning cup-a-joe.
Is it the right thing to use ANY power line fitration/conditioning/ regulation since it seems to me that most audio equipment was probably engineered to sound a certain way by the designer using what comes straight from the wall and that by using these devices you are changing the way the designers of your equipment probably intended them to sound. Perhaps not always for the better.Now I'm not saying powerline devices don't work. On the contrary I have used many such devices in my own system and have heard benificial results by doing so.
Any thoughts?
Follow Ups:
As an audio designer for almost 40 years, I can tell you that most audio designers ignore the extra garbage that comes in from the AC line. Back in 1968, I was at the Ampex Audio division and I had to RFI proof a tape recorder that was to be used in a radio station. My efforts worked, BUT I doubt that I made the unit actually sound any better in a normal setting, because I had to use so many ferrite coils and ceramic caps (ugh!) To make a good line conditioner is not easy or necessarily cheap. Sorry about that. However, SOME AC lines are fairly clean, while others just a few miles away, are very dirty. Go figure. I measured the power line at my apartment, about 10 years ago, in Walnut Creek CA. We were only about 10 mi from the AC generators themselves, and the low level of RF in the region DEMANDED cable service. YET, you should have seen the crap on the line! It went on and on from 60Hz (what we hoped for) to many MegaHz Really, no fooling. It was MUCH more than I would have expected. Why? High frequency ballasts in hi efficiency lamps, switching power supplies in computers and faxes, etc, etc.
power cords can and do make a difference with most gear. That is, the power supplies are not properly designed to deal with the "less than pure" AC signal that they are being fed. Obviously, if "noise" is riding the AC feedline, it ends up entering the equipment IF nothing is done to negate it from doing so. As any engineer worth a hill of beans knows, even rectification won't stop RFI, as RF is often superimposed on top of DC in many circuits.As such, changing and manipulating the impedances prior to the power supply can and does become an effective way to improve system performance. By playing games with various power cords that are specifically designed to manipulate impedances, one can alter both the bandwidth and amplitude of the "noise" that the power supply has to deal with. On most commercial designs, this is not only audible, but also measurable. That is, if one has the right equipment and knows what to look for. Obviously, John has the right equipment and know-how, so i'm glad that he took the time to share his experiences with us.
As a side note, just because someone has a hammer and a saw doesn't make them a carpenter, etc.... It is having the know how to use those tools AND applying that knowledge that goes with it in a consistent manner that makes one skilled at any trade. In that respect, we are lucky to have guys like John on this forum. There are other industry professionals* that also deserve a pat on the back for the efforts that they put forth, but quite honestly, i don't see any of them working as hard as John does to try and educate the consumer. Kudo's to him for taking the time to do so. Sean
>* Ralph from Atma-Sphere comes in a close second : )
Why do customers of high-end audio admit that their expensive equipment may not work as fine as expected when fed by real world mains?
Or when sprayed with RF radiation from everyday equipment like cellphones or microwave ovens?Would you buy a car that would only work on sunny days and not when raining because of insulation faults in the electrical wiring? But if you buy protective covers quite as expensive as the car itself?
Sounds crazy...
A convertable drive nicely in summer and CAN drive in winter but it will not be as comfortable as a nice warm sedan. Just wondering how many Miata can drive over 6 inch snow.
Jacques, would you use a Porsche on bumpy roads and in the rain? Get real! A Porsche might drive in the rain and on bumpy roads, but being low to the ground, it is difficult to see as far, and the low ground clearance means that you will be hitting bottom more than you would like. Still, Porsches are sold, and are great to drive on good days and reasonably good roads.
It is the same in hi end audio. We do not think that too many audio products are happily coping with AC-RFI, but one does not expect much from the cheaper models, so we just ignore it. Even if you cleaned up the input RFI in many components, the switching power supplies in the component itself could generate more internal RFI than ANY outside source. Then you get that mid-fi sound. Please learn about the audio business before making strong comments condemning our approach to audio design.
... but I would rethink that analogy. My Boxsters have been daily drivers, rain or shine, smooth roads or bumpy, and totally reliable. The only time I take my wife's car is when I need to pick something up that won't fit in the Porsche.
put up with the trailing throttle oversteer?(Don't worry, only joking...tee hee)
At least it suggests where you get those rocks for your little bottles.
your zingers lack sting - quite humorous though unintentional.Good luck in your quest for mediocrity - you're well on your way.
I find the problem with my 944, so I extrapolated. Still, I have found plenty of occasions where the 944 is not the best vehicle for the road conditions. I am always scraping a fender or something.
Your original point is good, and the primary limitation on sonic performance for much high-end gear is its susceptibility to air-borne and conducted RF noise.However, you seem to think there is such a thing as a large population of designers who are skilled in both RF noise rejection and high-end audio. I think there may be a few lonely individuals who fit this description. Reading between the lines in recent TAS reviews of high-end gear suggests more audio folks are making efforts to control RF noise susceptibility. Is there any evidence that the RF noise folks care about audio?
Why would customers buy oversize, inefficient automobiles that tip over in typical emergency maneuvers, instead of demanding practical, stylish, and stable cars? For the same reason that customers do not demand good RF immunity in the high-end of audio. Call it ignorant vanity, or vain ignorance, but only the threat of extinction will force the industry as a whole to change, not customer intellectual leadership.
Why would customers buy oversize, inefficient automobiles that tip over in typical emergency maneuvers, instead of demanding practical, stylish, and stable cars? For the same reason that customers do not demand good RF immunity in the high-end of audioHey, there is a huge market for oversize, inefficient automobiles etc . Those are SUVs ;-)
But apart from the joke, good RF immunity (among other qualities like brown-out tolerance etc) are invisible qualities, contrarly to 2-inch thick cast front plates.
But what when you hear cracks each time the HVAC lights on, or can listen to the nearby AM% station. Or get hissles because yourt daughter is calling with her cellphone in her room behind your listening room?
Then, as a customer, you're dissatisfied.
I want this dissatisfaction go against the manufacturer, not against the HVAC or the daughter.
Only then, using your wording the threat of extinction will force the industry as a whole to change.
So, the first fight for me is to make customers aware that this situation is unacceptable.
I'm talking about the sonic degradation that results from the presence of RF noise in audio systems, not the break-through artifacts you mentioned. Certainly, these are bad and the designer should be held accountable for them. However, at much lower levels of RF noise, there is still sonic degradation that makes many high-end audio systems sound harsh and cold instead of warm and sensuous (with appropriate program material).I believe the increasing levels of RF noise in typical dwellings will cause high-end audio to disappear unless the designers confront and solve the issues in their products. Many audiophiles now strain to convince themselves that what they hear is better than mass-market equipment, when it is drained of emotional content by the artifacts of RF noise. As the RF noise level rises, fewer will be successful and find the expense worthwhile.
have people NOT admit to there being a problem and lie about it or speak the truth and deal with it as best they can?I've often said that most commercial gear is drastically under-designed as far as the power supply goes. This goes for off the shelf mass produced components up to those that are custom built mega-dollar pieces. Knowing that, sharing that information and making others aware of it by pointing out blatant offenders and teaching them what to look for is about all that i can do. Getting someone else ( manufacturers ) to do something about it is another story.
Obviously, the goal is for all of the various manufacturers to produce well designed gear, but that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. As such, what is your answer to this type of situation? Sean
>
I've often said that most commercial gear is drastically under-designed as far as the power supply goes. This goes for off the shelf mass produced components up to those that are custom built mega-dollar pieces.The later is perfectly unacceptable. As I quoted somewhere else, home life-sustaining equipment like dialysis and baby monitoring does work on mains with very high levels of EMI, and can deal with high levels of radiated RF noise. The levels of which are specified in many standards.
And it's not expensive at all, once it's taken into account from the beginning ($10 to $20 along with a clever layout or boards and wires, according to my experience of designing very rugged equipment)
Knowing that, sharing that information and making others aware of it by pointing out blatant offenders and teaching them what to look for is about all that i can do.I would like to have reviewers test the susceptibility of equipment. Would be even more interesting than their wine-tasting wording. A good conducted EMI generator like Schaffner builds costs in the 2,000. It would help to screen out offenders (and too-easily-offended).
Don't forget the wallet is yours. Works for the manufacturers, but first for the magazines...
Do I have to tell further to a citizen of Ralph Nader's nation?
Getting someone else ( manufacturers ) to do something about it is another story.If a well known brand has its new expensive toy bashed away by reviewers because of its EMI susceptibility, I bet that this unacceptable problem will soon be fixed. Again, the magazines (and Internet forums maybe too) are the key.
Obviously, the goal is for all of the various manufacturers to produce well designed gear, but that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. As such, what is your answer to this type of situation?My answer is doubleBut I'm not like Georgesguy, our Polarity Pandit (TradeMark). If customers of high-end audio don't care about spending thousand of bucks to make their equipment work like it was sold to do, I won't make of it the Fight of my life, you know!
- making people aware that such a situation is unacceptable, and that an equipment that could not pass standard ground-based equipment EMI/RFI susceptiblity/ perturbation certifications would better be used as a boat anchor, even if highly prized by perfect-world reviewers.
- teaching 80 hours/year of correct design rules at an engineering school in Marseilles. Those guys are likely to work later in industrial electronics or avionics and shall avoid many pitfalls...
As an audio designer for almost 40 years, I can tell you that most audio designers ignore the extra garbage that comes in from the AC line.which is a shame.
Any equipment is to be able to work in its end-user environment. Susceptibility to variations to each of this environment parameters is to be taken into account.
Which variations? At least those written down in standards.And this includes (among other things like salt fog resistance or mold - what for customers living near the seashore or in a humid area?- ) power mains (sags, cuts, brown-out with some statistics of recurrence, conducted EMI, radiated EMI, in both modes etc etc.).
Tons of standards do exist that deal with the topic.Not knowing their existence and grossly their content is unprofessional for designers (but maybe youngsters, but they shall be mentored anyway).
Not requesting compliance to some set of standards (establisehed or had hoc, but at least thought about and written down) is unprofessional for a project manager.
Admitting these flaws is unprofessional for a CTO.Do you think that home life-sustaining medical equipment designers are not aware of the extra garbage that comes in from the AC line to use your wording? Of course they are.
So, the solution: hire such people, to save your industry. Get rid of unprofessional attitudes!
Neither does the listening room, equipments stands, or any associated equipment that might differ from end users. The fact that it has chameleon like properties in various listenings environments should not be confused with modifying the designer's intent.When designers offer the option of AC and batteries are they trying to confuse us? If your post was intended as some sort of metaphysical art piece then disregard and have fun.
..
More and more top-level designers appear to be addressing the RF noise issue, and eventually this knowledge will work its way down to modest gear as our environments become more polluted with RF noise. In the mean time, do what you must to reduce RF noise on your AC wiring and don't worry about the equipment designer's intent. She or he would want you to get the best sound possible from your equipment in your house.
"don't worry about the equipment designer's intent"What about if the designer/s specifically state that they do not recommend ANY powerline devices or specialty cords of any kind be used with their equipment.Some say that to obtain the best "sound" that it be plugged directly into the wall. (Like my Wadia 861se).
Do I follow those recommendations,even though that means untreated AC is being used?
I mean If the intent is to get the best sound with the equipment in my house then it looks like I would have to go against what the designer/s had in mind if I used powerline devices.
I've got a Wadia 861 (not -se) purchased in 1998 and the manual says the same thing. I believe Wadia's intent was to avoid complaints from use of incompatible power conditioners, but it certainly makes them look silly. To be charitable, power conditioners were not well developed in 1998, and neither were power cords.I can assure you that my Wadia, on its own dedicated 20-ampere circuit, certainly does benefit from power cord and power conditioning treatments. It does NOT like to share a circuit with a power amp!
Another useful tweak for this model is to remove the pointy feet and support the player on roller-ball suspension devices. Horizontal freedom allows it to reveal more detail. Be sure the power cord and interconnect cables do not restrict the horizontal motion, and that the vertical support is solid.
I see your point...and it's well taken, But my Wadia 861se was bought in 05 with the manual saying......"The best performance is obtained when the Wadia 861se is plugged directly into the wall with power cord provided. The Wadia 861se has power conditioning, surge suppression and an extremely sophisisticated overall protection scheme. It should not be necessary to use surge protectors, power conditioners, or aftermarket power cords, some of which may degrade sonic performance. If you wish to experiment with any of thes devices, work with your dealer - and most of all, trust your ears."
I don't think there statement is a way to avoid complaints and certainly doesn't make them look silly. I think that it speaks for it self.
And...BTW...my ears tell me their right.
"It should not be necessary to use surge protectors, power conditioners, or aftermarket power cords, some of which may degrade sonic performance." 'Should' and 'may' cover my interpretation of this statement. There are plenty of half-baked power cord and power conditioner designs, which add noise or sonic artifacts.If you have pristine incoming AC, and effective filters to keep the power supply noise from your other components out of the Wadia, then you may well not need a better cord to realize the Wadia's maximum performance potential. Forgive me if I continue to doubt that this is the case.
I assume that Wadia knows more about their equipment and power requirements than anyone else. Enough to know that it would be better to come down on the side of caution when dealing with powerline devises....most of which are not worth the money spent... as you say, "half-baked designs".(Or... maybe Wadia is a part of a vast conspiracy of non clean AC-believers out to ruin the PLC makers of the world by advising against their use).
I think its the former...not the later.
You said Wadia stated, "It should not be necessary to use surge protectors, power conditioners, or aftermarket power cords, some of which may degrade sonic performance."What do you make of this? It seems they're saying their equipment can be degraded by A/C but not improved. It sounds like nonsense. I wonder if they feel that dedicated lines are also a potential detriment.
"It should not be necessary to use surge protectors, power conditioners, or aftermarket power cords, some of which may degrade sonic performance."Where are you reading in that statement that they say AC degrades the performance of their products? Who would make such a claim as that!
I dont think it says "Use of AC on this product may be detrimental to it's sonic performance". (even though...suprise!...it takes AC to power the damn thing!)
That IS nonsense!
They most certainly say, plain as day, that some..not all, of these so-called power improving devices can possibly degrade the performance of their product.
As to the last speculation you make...you'll have to ask Wadia.
Wadia says,
"It should not be necessary to use surge protectors, power conditioners, or aftermarket power cords, some of which may degrade sonic performance."You say,
"They most certainly say, plain as day, that some..not all, of these so-called power improving devices can possibly degrade the performance of their product."You both say some AC accessories can degrade performance.
You asked,
"Where are you reading in that statement that they say AC degrades the performance of their products? Who would make such a claim as that!"Both you and Wadia are making that claim. After AC passes through any of the devices in question, it is still AC. Why is it difficult to say, after market AC products have absolutely no affect on the Wadia, if it were indeed true?
> What about if the designer/s specifically state that they do not recommend ANY powerline devices or specialty cords of any kind be used with their equipment.Some say that to obtain the best "sound" that it be plugged directly into the wall. (Like my Wadia 861se).>I use a Wadia 850 and found it to benefit greatly from a specialty power cord - as most CD players do - and a power conditioner.
Your results may vary.
But you won't know until you give it try - hopefully listening over a day or two.
... I use a surge strip on everything, all high tech systems, computer, audio, pro-PA ...Mostly for convenience: single switch for on/off, an extra, though modest, amount of surge protection is double insurance, to provide extra outlets for accessories, cable control ...
All power lines are dirty, filthy, noisy beasts. Just turn on an AM radio, anywhere in the the USA and you will hear it. A quality audio device engineer may have planned for this, maybe not ... or maybe not quite enough.
Extra filtration and surge protection is good ... more is almost always better.
...IMO, it is "the right thing" to use power line fitration/conditioning/ regulation, exotic power cords, or any other tweaks as long as they improve the musical reproduction of your system.It takes long term listening, not a quick A-B, to determine this.
Nothing else matters.
Not the designer's intent - or his ego.
That's the bottom line.
probably use an ac source that makes clean ac power from an inverter based system running off dc that has been rectified from the mains to isolate and control their ac supply in their design lab to reduce the number of variables that may impact their testing. I do not see a lot of value in trying to replicate that situation. Use your ears and only pay for stuff that makes a significant positive difference.
I'm not concerned with what anyone hears but me. Remember these designers make equipment that puts noise into the line. Every piece of gear you have will pollute your AC to some extent so one device for the whole system doesn't work. Putting a isolation transformer in each piece of gear would be nice.......kinda-they are big and heavy. I wonder if/when some amp will come with its own isolation transformer built inside the case.ET
I would think that it would be next to impossible to hear an amplifier as it sounded to it's designer.
You have to do these tweaky/upgradish/modificaliture things and hope that somewhere along the line you feel confident that you're hearing what the designer was hearing when they thought they were done designing. (Then you sell your house and start again ;) )
Well, let's take this a step further....Suppose you want to use a PS Audio amp. Should you not then also purchase the largest power plant, a couple of Noisetrappers, and some Statement power cords since that's probably what the designer worked with?
Another point...
How do you know that the power you are getting from the wall is the same as the designers? Perhaps the voltage differs? Maybe the noise level is different? Maybe, just maybe the designer is using a 30amp dedicated line.....
The best you can do is provide the cleanest power you can.
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