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Dear y'all,
In your experience, is there one piece in the audio chain that can have the biggest influence on the dynamics of a system? I hope that I'm using the term correctly, but what I mean is the visceral 'punch' that some systems have that mine doesn't. And I'm not referring to just bass energy, I'm talking about a completely dynamic presentation, without regard to low bass (I don't use a sub), if this is possible.
What I've found, as of late, is that overall, my system has progressed to the point that my ears actually prefer it to some uber-$$$ systems that I hear in hi-fi shops. The one thing that I seem to be lacking, however, is dynamics. Tonally, my setup has a very good presentation. The soundstage and imaging, as well, suit my tastes. However, it is a dynamically 'flat' sound, and I'm thinking of ways to remedy this...
I will shortly be buying parts to do some upgrades in my CDP: new opamps, upgraded caps and Rs. Hopefully, this might help. I'm also going to be adding acoustic panels to my listening room next year. I'm hoping that this might help, as well. But I can't help but think that there is more that I can be doing.
Any thoughts? Suggestions? Opinions on what single component in the audio chain can most effortlessly give a dynamic presentation, if it is even possible for a single component to do this?
I may be way off here, but I appreciate your thoughts anyway!
Cheers,
ChrisP.S. My system is listed under my moniker if it helps. Cheers.
"Music is God's gift to man, the only art of Heaven given to earth, the only art of earth we take to Heaven."
-Walter Savage Landor
Follow Ups:
This follow up is horribly ironic, because it involves a pair of speakers that I won on Ebay, and just picked up locally. The ironic part is that I won the auction a few days ago, before I posted the original question! But here goes...
I will be separating my music system and HT system next year (they are currently integrated), and needed a pair of speakers for movies. I noticed that someone near me had a pair of Dahlquist M-905s on Ebay, so I bid, and planned on picking them up locally... which I did today, along with a couple of pairs of 12au7s.
Anyway, I got them home, and hooked them up on the main system to check them out.
...
...
Holy crap!!
You know the dynamic presentation I was looking for? Yeah, it's there! It was a problem with the speakers all along. The only problem is that these new speakers are BRIGHT! Tonally, I think that my B&Ws are much more accurate, and are easier to listen to. However, the dynamics, or transient attack (I'm not sure which one) are much better on the Dahlquists: snare hits, bass kicks, finger snaps, guitar plucks, etc. are much more palpable.
I tried rolling the new tubes. One pair (I don't recall the make... they're downstairs right now) smoothed out the high end, but the bass was loose.
Oh well, it's a good predicament to find oneself in: two good pairs of speakers to choose between... and I own them both!
Thanks again for all of your ideas. I will post more about the differences between the speakers when I do some more listening. But for now, it seems like the speaker change helped a great deal!
Cheers,
Chris
"Music is God's gift to man, the only art of Heaven given to earth, the only art of earth we take to Heaven."
-Walter Savage Landor
..
.
"Music is God's gift to man, the only art of Heaven given to earth, the only art of earth we take to Heaven."
-Walter Savage Landor
.
"Music is God's gift to man, the only art of Heaven given to earth, the only art of earth we take to Heaven."
-Walter Savage Landor
HowdyAs time has gone on I've increased the dynamics of my system by:
Better CDP (EMM Labs DAC6e)
Better speaker cables (TGAudio)
Better power cord on my transport(!) (At the time a Philips SACD-1000)
Bigger speakers (JMLab Nova Utopia Be from my older JMLab Mezzo Utopia)
Monoblocks (750W SimAudio W-10's instead of 200 W SimAudio Titan)
Sound deadening in my walls and ceiling
Better transport (EMM Labs CDSD)
HRS isolation shelves under amps and transport
Better interconnects (TGAudio Balanced High Purity Silver (6 pairs!))It's been a while getting here and I can't reasonably recommend anyone else spending the money I spent, but one guest that believed that dynamic speakers couldn't touch his SoundLabs speakers admitted that he hadn't realized that there was more than one way to get to his goal and that the dynamic speaker's bass was better to boot.
-Ted
Dynamics is a simple mechanical relationship between electrical power in and acoustic power out. Saying new patch-cords, shelves and plugs gives better dynamics is delusional and is like saying my car does the quarter quicker because I got fuzzy dice, an STP sticker and silver sparkplug wires.
HowdyTuff, I'm not delusional and I wouldn't have believed it myself, but hey, save yourself some money time if it doesn't float your boat.
Just for starters:
Anything that affect the phase of the signal can affect dynamics. (interconnects, amps, speakers, DACs, digital filters, ...)
Anything that affects the system noise floor can affect dynamics. (Power cords, power filtering, mechanical isolation, interconnects..., let alone quality of amps, DAC, speakers... )
-Ted
Yeah, I understand the noise floor but not why wires and stands would effect it. Were you hearing noise that went away with different wires? Noise is easily enough heard.We had to wait for RCA wires and patch-cords to be called "interconnects" for them to improve sound.
As for phase, everybody throws that term around like mumbo-jumbo, if you can't think of anything else play the phase card.
HowdyI don't know the specific mechanism for each improvement, but instead of having a closed mind I gave each of these the benefit of the doubt and tried them. Some wires definitely made the system quieter but would kill the PRAT, others would kill the dynamics, others were so bad (for my system anyway) that they muffled everything. Better wires can have better RFI rejection (noise), less reactance (phase), differing shielding (noise and phase), differing dielectric adsorption (nonlinearities, phase)... The wires I chose aren't esoteric, they are simply silver with a good dielectric and some care in choosing associated hardware and construction. There are many recipes that work well, but, unfortunately, many more that don't.
I don't have a mine so open my brains fall out, but the basis of science is empiricism not ostrichism.
-Ted
P.S. I also ran blind and double blind tests on the interconnects I was choosing from, when you're contemplating buying 6 sets of (potentially costly) interconnects you can afford to take your time and enlist the help of a few friends.
the dynamics are not going to be affected by IC's, unless you compare them to some that have 100ohms resistance! IC's may affect the tone or the quality of the signal, but the having a huge, sensitive motor with a very light cone in your speaker is only thing that's going to give you great dynamics. It is the efficiency and speed of converting electrical to mechanical energy that does it. And phase will not be affected by IC's- unless they have caps or inductors in them!
HowdyCome visit sometime and make up your own mind.
-Ted
P.S. I'm serious.
who can't understand the concept of lowering the noise floor.rw
When your speakers are too slow to accurately reproduce the lead edge of the sound, it seems pretty futile to focus on tweeks that supposedly 'lower the noise floor'...not that attempting to remove some of that hash is not a bad idea...IME, the speaker makes all the difference...assuming you have a good amp. :)
The most dynamic speaker on Earth today incorporates ALE compression drivers in a multi- way system....hands down.Until Cogent gets their stuff on the market there simply is no competition.
The only troubles here are cost and requisite space, so one makes selective compromises, but it helps to have a standard.
Later
D
When your speakers are too slow to accurately reproduce the lead edge of the sound...I don't face that issue with virtually massless full range electrostats using one mil thick diaphragms. :)
rw
like you can only hear with ALE or GOTO. It will blow your socks off.Later
D
nt
"A common misconception about ESLs is that their moving mass is extremely small; and therefore that their transient behavior can be exemplary. The fact of the matter is that there is an air layer directly associated with the diaphragm, as discussed in Chapter One. Jordan (1963) estimates the per-unit area air mass to be about five times greater than the per-unit area mass of the diaphragm itself."John Eargle---Loudspeaker Handbook, second edition, 2003
then the virtually massless diaphragm and a bit of air still weight a fraction of any dynamic driver with it's required coil of wire.rw
Don't forget the other half of the equation---the power of your motor. ESLs have pretty weak motors, as I've said before it's like believing a Focus is faster than a Cadillac CTS-V just because the Focus is lighter.
Integrated depth and compound acceleration would greatly affect that calc. It'd be interesting to know what volume of the air is actually coupled to the mass.Anyone ever run a comparison in a vacuum to determine the real number?
Cheers, John
I don't need instruction on dynamics from a fella who evidently favors electrostats.
I'll enjoy my pianissimo. :)rw
I've liked the excellent clarity of many ESLs I've heard and would certainly prefer them to the chinless cones and tragic domes so many are fond of.
Phase Linear used to make these, maybe some others? You might be able to get one on ebay. Audio purists would shreik in horror at the thought of connecting such a device on a permament basis, but mainstream reviewers were quite impressed with them when they first appeared. Basically they magnify the dynamics of the signal i.e. they are the opposite of the dynamic compression that you get, say, on typical FM broadcasts. If you can find one of these and hook it up, you will get a feel for what your system would sound like with added dynamics, and if you decide that's really where the problem lies you can think about how to get that effect without 'gimmickry'. You also might try swapping your cables and interconnects for generic Radio Shack stuff just to see what happens. Some interconnects, like one I used to use, can actually blunt dynamics due to weird impedance effects, plus they all interact. Your tube preamp might not like the cable you're using, or your amp might not like the preamp or the cable. Borrow a 100watt receiver, pop it in, and see if the system sounds more dynamic. If so, you can think about improving the preamp to amp interface. Finally, that damping material on the magnets of your speakers - hmmmm... Does B&W have an opinion on that?
Of course, as others have pointed out, every subset of your system, and the source material, is a potential cause of the 'problem'. But it sounds like overall you've got a great system and you're pretty happy with it.
Judging by the way speak about "system dynamics", I'm going to assume that you would idolize a lively sounding system that emphasizes transient shifts during musical playback. Listening in nearfield helps to attain this goal because you are minimizing room interactions with the speaker's output. I myself have taken this principle to it's extreme by building my system around the AKG K-1000 earspeakers, which feature dynamic transducers that hover in free space less than an inch away from my ears. Talk about "system dynamics" - this headphone system definitely has it in spades. While it's probably true that you cannot retrieve much more in the way of "system dynamics" than is encoded on a recording, it is equally true that one of the biggest obstacles to "dynamic" sound lies somewhere inside of the typical speaker/room/ear relationship.
Dynamic compression is when the difference between what's quiet and what is loud is minimized. Magneplanar speakers are famous for dynamic compression, in that they'll get louder and louder a point then just collapse and the more power you shove into them the more they compress and distort. With the right power however, things have to be insanely loud before this will happen.The vast majority of CDs released today have little to no dynamic range whatsoever, so you can't do anything about that. If it's not your source material, read on...
Transient attack is the sort of hit-you-in-the-gut ability of your system to go from standing still to running full blast back to standing still instantaneously.
I firmly believe that complexity in electtronic design is enemy number one when it comes to this stuff. I had a Bryston 4B SST before acquiring my Pass Labs X250.5. Into the ~4ohm load presented by my Magnepalanar MG-IIIa speakers, they both delivered 500 watts per channel. However, the Pass has FAR better control over the drivers - that amazing ability for stuff to just come out from the deep deep black - the contrast is just spectacular.
I believe this is because the Pass amp is a lot more simple in design. The signal path is a lot shorter, and it goes through far fewer gain stages. The more you put a signal through, the more you muddy it up.
This doesn't just apply to power amps, and it certainly starts at the source.
Looking at your system, you've got something which probably sounds very "English" - superb tonality, spectacular warmth and transparency, but a little too polite! In contrast, a lot of "American" gear can do the dynamics and power stuff all day, but be cold and uninteresting to listen to.
The room is also very important - a lot of reverb can blur sharp transient hits.
I also believe that to really push out the dynamics and presence of big instruments - piano, large percussion instruments, etc, you have got to have the ability to move a lot of air. Physically large speakers have a much better chance at this. Some (Magneplanars!) blow it out of proportion, however. Dunlavy spekers were renowned for their ability accurately portray the acoustic presence of large instruments.
Anyway, for me, the power amp was the biggest change. The source was big too, however.
Good luck!
--jeff
As others have said, everything can affect dynamics, but here's a slightly different take which may help, depending on what you're doing at present:I was helping to move a system to a different room at the home of a famous mastering engineer a couple of weekends ago. The components are all world-class, but we found that there was a HUGE increase in both micro- and macrodynamics depending upon the way the electronic components were supported (squishy feet on racks vs. roller bearings on racks vs. spiking the amps directly through the carpet into the concrete slab, etc.). It was amazing how just removing some bearing-like devices from underneath the amps caused the system to come alive after having sounded very flat. The mastering engineer remarked that he had heard a particular track thousands of times and this was now the closest he had ever heard to the master tape--and that was after the system had been lifeless and underwhelming a couple of hours earlier (yes, it had already been warmed up, broken in, etc.).
Many of us have gone through stages where we have piled tweaks on top of tweaks on top of tweaks, and I have often found that removing some of those devices and going to a fairly minimalist system actually causes the sound to become more pure and open and alive. It can even be the case that certain expensive cables, including power cables, are designed almost as tone controls to tame the overly bright and thin "hi-fi" which is so common nowadays, and substituting simpler cables, sometimes even the old Beldens, can actually cause the sound to feel more dynamic. (I understand, of course, that removing noise--which some expensive power cables are designed to do--and removing the system's life are two different things, but you'd be surprised how much the boundaries between these two are crossed.)
The above may not apply to you, but it has worked for me as a general rule and might help.
Best,
mjv
I can get massive dynamic range off large horn systems. Even on afordable sources with small amps but if you want dynamic deep bass then large amps are needed to run bass horn etc ,many large hieff systems use this type of design if they want deep bass. I have yet to hear massive dynamic range in other loudspeaker designs.
Without a doubt a well designed hi-eff speaker will set the music ablaze likr no other. they really dont have to be huge and imposing from a design perspective, just smart. look at the Decware WO32 compression sub for example. It could fit right under my wife's nose without a blink.
Multiamping is a must though.
.
.
Two main types of dynamic compression occur in a typical home playback system: Clipping and thermal compression.Clipping is most likely to occur in the power amplifier, but it can also occur in the output stage of CD player, phono section, preamp, or other processors. Soft clipping (charactersitic if tubes) is often perceived as a compression of the dynamics before it's heard as an audible distortion, whereas hard clipping (characteristic of solid state) is usually heard as a distortion before it's perceived as a compression of the dynamics.
Thermal compression (also called power compression) occurs in the loudspeaker and is a result of voice coil heating. As the voice coil heats up its resistance rises, lowering both the efficiency and voltage sensitivity of the system. We're used to thinking that a tenfold increase in amplifier power will give us a 10 dB increase in SPL, but in practice the increase is more like 7 to 9 dB depending on the speakers and the input power levels. Obviously this will soften the dynamic impact of transients. I believe that thermal compression is the dominant type of dynamic compression in most sound systems.
Mechanical compression is less common than thermal compression and only occurs when a loudspeaker driver's physical excursion puts the voice coil and/or suspension beyond its linear range. For instance mechanical compression will usually occur before clipping or significant thermal compression when a short-throw high-efficiency fullrange driver (like a Lowther or Fostex) is pushed too hard, but can occur when any driver is pushed too hard at low frequencies.
In my opinion the recipe for good dynamic contrast is to start with high efficiency loudspeakers, or at least with loudspeakers that have negligible thermal compression within the anticipated SPL range (figure based on peak SPL's, which can be 15 or more dB above the average SPL). Then get an amplifier sufficiently powerful to not clip at those anticipated peak SPL's with those speakers.
Unfortunately thermal compression figures are never quoted for home audio loudspeakers, so as a general guideline high efficiency is the primary indicator, and high RMS power handling is the secondary indicator.
I haven't seen data to support this, but I believe that signal smearing can reduce subjective dynamic contrast. I think the effect is more likely to be noticeable through a coherent loudspeaker system. I've had several customers swear to me that a certain speaker cable "made their amp play louder", and the only thing I can think of is that that cable manufacturer places a very high priority on eliminating any signal smearing.
A change that raises or lowers the noise floor will also affect the dynamic range of the system, resulting in the perception of greater or lesser dynamic contrast accordingly.
I have the impression that power supply issues in electronics throughout the chain can effect the dynamic contrast, but I don't know how much of a difference that can make in practice, nor whether or not the result is significantly different from clipping. I'd appreciate clarification from anyone with a better understanding of this.
Finally, subtle frequency response changes due to cabling or component changes can give the impression of increased or decreased dynamic contrast.
But to recap, in my opinion loudspeaker thermal compression is the primary source of compression in most playback systems, and the second most common source of compression, amplifier clipping, can be attributed jointly to louspeaker and amplifier.
All just my opinion, corrections welcome.
Duke
Duke,I fully agree on the thermal and mechanical compression issues that you raised for loudspeakers. Solutions are properly designed high efficiency horns and line arrays which use direct radiating speakers. My favorite solution as you know are line arrays.
Jim
Hi Jim! Good to hear from you.Yup it's kinda like there's no substitute for cubic inches, and a line array is an especially elegant way to employ those cubic inches.
Duke
nt
Im an avid electrostatic speaker fan through and through but I have a pair AR3s to and I even use electrostat add ons with those in another room..
Have you heard the avant gardes? They look like a hell of a nice speaker and I heard they have very good freq response.
Michael,The AG Trios have the capability to play loud and for all intents and purposes have seemingly limitless 'headroom' - but in musical terms, (to my ears) they are not as 'coherently dynamic' as a pair of stacked 57's or have the exciting/uneven wild dynamics of other traditional compression (VOTA7, etc) horns. They are deceptive in much the same way an Apogee ribbons (Stage, Duetta Sig etc) on initial listen they seem fantastically detailed and dynamic, until you realise that the inner detail can be the reverse... flat and lack-lustre. Or it may be that each speaker is just revealing of upstream components.
Enjoy
FW
nt
...first it's probably your amp/speaker combination whrer you'll hear the most difference. Next is the rest of your electronics.To me dynamics are the life and breath of the music and the second most important parameter to tonal accuracy in recreating a life-like sound.
If you find a couple of cuts to test dynamic contrasts with, you should be able to hear the differences fairly easily. One suggestion is "I Can See Clearly Now" from Holly Cole's "Don't Smoke in Bed", but I'm sure you'll find others.
I'm using inefficient speakers which present a difficult load and fairly high powered tubed amplifiers so there are many different approaches.
Probably not what you want to hear, but going balanced will bring everything into perspective. Switching from unbalanced to balanced between pre and amp was a huge improvement in PRAT and dynamics. I am now in the market for a cdp with variable balanced outputs to plug directly into my amp as cd's are my only source.
Christ, another PRAT guy. I hear "PRAT" with a transitor radio, it's in the music not the gear. At least for those of us who don't dance like Elaine.
OK, let's try attack, slam, punch, DYNAMICS. And no, I don't dance like Elaine. I don't dance at all. I'm a white guy with no rhythm. But I can play air guitar and embarrass myself thinking I can sing with the best of 'em...
Dynamics or dynamic range refers to the difference between the softest and loudest parts in a piece of music and is measured in dB. Dynamic headroom is the amp's ability to provide the instantaneous power to increase the spl when required. So good dynamic range is largely dependent on the recording and on the amp's power and the quality of its power supply. When you talk about visceral punch, I think that what you are referring to is transient attack. In my experience, low sensitivity bookshelf type speakers don't do transient attack very well. To me, they tend to sound rather constipated (as opposed to fast and effortless). Listen to a SET driving a pair of sensitive speakers, such as horns. See if this is the type of sound that floats your boat. If you don't want to go that route, you could start by beefing up your amp's power supply and see if this helps. Or consider getting (building?) more sensitive speakers. Cheers.
Better yet for dynamics listen to big-hog horns with a big-hog SS amp, even with horns SETs will run out of gas in the search for ultimate dynamics. SETs have virtues but ultimate dynamics isn't one of them.I used to run 104db horns with a 200wpc SS amp and at times used it all on Telarc records.
IMO, in decreasing order:
- high efficiency speakers... by far the most dynamic system I have ever heard has DIY speakers ~94-96db (see link below)- amplifier power. I have owned and loved a 55w AKSA amp for several years. Recently, I built a 100w AKSA amp. The voicing of these two amps is essentially identical, but the 100w amp is significantly more dynamic and much more fun to listen to.
- power supply in preamp and source components... I have clearly heard differences here, but--beyond suggesting that the power supply capacitance be beefed up--I don't have any particular insight to offer.
Good luck,
Peter
Efficiency alone in a speaker isn't enough, it needs so be capable of high output too. There are plenty of efficient speakers that simply won't move enough air to do good dynamics such as many single driver systems, most such systems are dynamically limited.For good dynamics you generally need lots of moving area as well as efficiency; a 15" woofer and compression driver-horn treble is about the minimum for excellent dynamics IME.
Large arrays of direct-radiators can do good dynamics too but I mean a LARGE array, like a pal who uses 8-18" woofers and 72" B&G planars, that's pretty dynamic with enough power.
Your friends DIY speakers look like they would be dynamic. Great job!I say speakers are the most important factor. But i disagree on amp power. My efficient DIY speakers sound great with either 30 (that's a lot!) tube watts or 6 digital watts from the cheapo Sonic Impact digital amp. 100 solid state watts from either my (sold) Aragon or cheap Yamaha receiver always sound 'flat'... tubes round out the sound a bit but i think what you really want is 'bloom' and 'jump factor'.
Efficeint speakers that have enough bass to form a foundation and tube or digital watts help create the sense of dynamics, bloom and jump factor that's very satisfying.
Peace,
Godzilla
Normally, I would agree with you, but a few weeks ago I heard something for the first time which threw a wrench in that assumption: Magneplanar speakers.
I don't recall the specific model, but these speakers (driven by a Bryston integrated) provided some of the most (if not the most) dynamic music I have ever heard! And these babies were fast !! Certainly not what I would consider efficient, however...
"Music is God's gift to man, the only art of Heaven given to earth, the only art of earth we take to Heaven."
-Walter Savage Landor
I'm assuming you heard rather small Maggies-given they were griven by a Bryston integrated. In this case, and too often in my experience, fast tends to mean too little or lean bass which makes the sound seem faster. This is not a trade off that I personally would want to make.
in my experience. That is a planar advantage. Though I guess they don't go as loud as some competitively priced speakers. Their "quasi-ribbon" tweeters are much better than what you get in similarly priced conventional speakers. I would think a Bryston integrated could drive any Magneplanars in an average room, at least if you listen at normal levels.
As I understand it good transient response will show up as extended frequency response and Maggies don't have that. While the mass of the diaphragm is low the motor is also very weak, a poor power-to-weight ratio. It's kinda like thinking a Focus must be faster than a Cadillac CTS-V because it's lighter.Maggies do sound good within their dynamic limits but I think that what's going on has little to do with "speed" or transient response. Perhaps it's the directivity or just plain old-fashioned low distortion.
since everything beyond that point is subtractive as far as the signal goes, ie your amp, pre-amp, etc aren't going to add more dynamics than that which they were given.
Suggestion.If you can, use a pair of decent headphones and go through your system from source to speaker output. Use a separate amplifier if necessary.
Is there some point at which you lose your dynamics ?
Is what comes out of your loudspeakers any way what your phone indicate is being fed to them ?Cheers ....... Graham.
Hi TopPopSuggestion.
If you can, use a pair of decent headphones and go through your system from source to speaker output. Use a separate amplifier if necessary.
Is there some point at which you lose your dynamics ?
Is what comes out of your loudspeakers any way what your phone indicate is being fed to them ?Cheers ....... Graham.
Everything can affect dynamics, but you'll still hear no greater dynamic range than is being output from the CD player. GIGO rules.
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