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In Reply to: Do you believe "you get what you pay for" in audio? posted by M3 lover on February 17, 2006 at 13:59:09:
I suspect Mr. Crabbe's chart is nothing more than his personal beliefs put in chart form to look "accurate".It makes more sense to collect data and then come to conclusions ... than it does to chart an audiophile's beliefs.
For audiophiles willing to accept the ridicule of reporting blind listening experiments, the results over three decades consistently support the hypothesis that differences "heard" in sighted auditions are often imagined, or small SPL differences thought to be meaningful sound quality differences.
The results of these experiments don't necessarily apply to the ears of people who did not participate. But for those who did experiment, there was usually a large gap between what was expected (all components sound different) and what was experienced (component differences were usually subtle, or not audible at all while listening to music).
There's no reason to speculate about your own hearing ability when it's so easy to do a single-blind cable-swap audio component comparison at home and find out for yourself!
Audio magazines are in business to make money.
Most of the money they make comes from advertisers.
Advertisers make money by selling equipment.
Advertisers prefer magazines where good things are said about almost every component "tested".
They want customers to believe spending more money gets audible improvements.
That may be generally true for speakers where differences are easily heard, but makes no sense for electronics (and especially wires) where differences are often in the imaginations of the listeners.
Follow Ups:
You may dispute at what price point diminishing returns kicks in or at what "slope" the return diminishes.However, the fact that diminishing returns exist is certainly not an opinion - it one of only 3 defined LAWS of economics. A diminishing return calculation is not something where tons of data needs to be collected - it's a pretty straight forward and well accepted approach. You learn in it Intro to Economics 101.
You can certianly disagree with the slope of his curve, however you can't say the curve does not exist. That would be incorrect.
You can look up "opportunity cost" in your Economics 101 textbook to see how that would apply to buying a "better" stereo component whose difference may not be audible (perhaps a new solid state amplifier) ... versus using the same amount of money to buy a better stereo component whose difference was easily audible (perhaps new speakers).This is just a metter of being objective before buying "better" equipment, rather than assuming spending money will always result in an audible sound quality improvement ... as manufacturers want us to believe.
RBN,You’re close, however seemed to have confused the relationship between the law of diminishing returns and opportunity cost. Opportunity cost is a result of the misallocation of resources as you move along the decreasing slope of the marginal revenue curve or diminishing returns.
Definitions of Opp Cost:
1. Opp cost is the next best alternative which is foregone whenever an economic decision is made
2. The cost of doing an activity instead of doing something else - applied to the time involved in unproductive activities.
3. The value of the best alternative use of a resource. This consists of the maximum value of other outputs we could and would have produced had we not used the resource to produce the item in question.
An appropriate example of opportunity cost in Audio would be "do I spend $5k on a new amplifier, or should I take my family on vacation to Jamiaca" (This example assumes doing both is not an option and remember from Econ 101 that all resources are limited) Or to your example, if in fact the Law of DR applies to audio then you would have an opportunity cost associated with upgrading from a $15k amp to a $20k amp since the marginal gain will be small, you could have used that $5k for something else.
I am not one who believes more expensive is better - in fact quite the opposite. However, what you describe above is diminishing returns - not opportunity cost. The two are interrelated since as you continue forward on the diminishing marginal revenue curve you begin to realize opportunity cost on applied resources due the misallocation of those resources. Remember, opportunity cost as it relates to this discussion is a result on diminishing returns. See – if DR did not exist, then you would not experience any opportunity cost because the return on using $5k to upgrade from a $15k amp to a $20k amp would yield the same return as spending your $5k anywhere else in the chain. If you do not agree with that last statement, then DR must exist.
The idea of diminishing returns as it relates to Audio is sound! (No pun intended)
If an audiophile can't hear differences among wires, which seems to happen in every blind audition, then how would "diminishing returns" apply to wires? The return (sound quality improvement) from purchasing ANY new wires would be zero. There would be absolutely no correlation between cost and sound quality.Your belief there would be a 'marginal gain from upgrading from a $15K to a $20K amp' is completely assumed. Can you prove a difference is even audible? Don't assume anything.
Did you know that a consensus of top US economists has never predicted a US recession ... yet we've had many recesssions!
R. BassNut Greene
MBA Finance 1977
Stern School of Business
New York University
NT
...
Why bother with reality when it's such a drag, join in on the hubris, acceptence is fun. Showing next month at your favorite audio dealer - audiophile celebrities learn to do circus acts. As an added bonus you can watch real live audiophiles discuss the merits of HPs and Mikeys most recent equipment acquisitions after the show.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
...
It's those who defend the advertiser/magazine sponsered hubris by attacking pragmatic thinkers like Richard BassNut Greene that are being negative and hateful.For sure I was agreeing with what I thought was your point - which I didn't think was a poke at me at all.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
...
What's wrong with people around here? Geez as if understanding the hubris created by the magazines/marketing is somehow negative. Somethings really backasswards around here and it's not Richard BassNut Greenes comments.I almost feel guilty posting around here - it's like telling children there really isn't a Santa Claus.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
People with strong beliefs typically attack all evidence the beliefs are wrong (blind auditions over three decades) and they often attack the characters of people who question their beliefs.That would apply to many subjects beyond audio.
I wonder how the "experts" responded to the first person who said the world was not flat!
The art is still that primitive. If it sounds like a live performance to you, you either haven't attended enough live performances, you have a very poor memory for sound, or you'd better get your hearing checked. Any way you look at it, you've bought more equipment performance than you can use.
You say, " If it sounds like a live performance to you, you either haven't attended enough live performances, you have a very poor memory for sound, or you'd better get your hearing checked. "For a start, there is no such thing as a typical "live" sound because of huge variations in performance auditoriums, so whose to say whether or not one's system/listening room sound "like" a live performance or not. And I have often enjoyed good recordings at home on my fairly modest system then live performances in inferior venues.
Also, fine multi-channel recordings played on good m/c systems go further than stereo ever has in creating a naturalistic concert hall ambience.
Bill Bailey
_______________
Beauty? Or Truth?
First of all, the current state of the art cannot reproduce the acoustics of ANY concert hall no matter how good or bad. At least not the types of recordings and equipment audiophiles have access to commercially. If there are any that can, they are experimental one of a kind types.Secondly, what you like or don't like has nothing to do with accuracy. I like photographs taken with Fuji Velvia film which ultrasaturate colors but they are not accurate. They look more like cartoons or paintings than photographs. They are not an accurate record of the image in the viewfinder and the manufacturer clearly tells you that, they have other films more suitable for that purpose. Audio manufacturers OTOH all seem to claim "accuracy" but have little evidence except a few contrived measurements or specifications to back it up. They do not even so much as conduct live recorded demos showing they can accurately reproduce the timbre of musical instruments.
As far as reproducing the overwhelming majority of sound heard at a live performance which is due to the acoustics, after decades of quadraphonic systems, multi-channel surround systems, processers, decoders, and the like, the best results have been poor and unconvincing possibly explaining why most serious audiophiles don't embrace them for serious music reproduction. It's well beyond the state of the art. Therefore if you think you have "concert hall realism" you have as much or more performance capability as you need. You do not need a color television set if you are color blind, a good black and white set is adequate because it gives you all you are capable of seeing already.
NT
That is is impossible to exactly reproduce the sound of any given performance venue in any other space. This is the case today and might be the case forever.Personally what I aspire to is the system that delivers the best recordings in a manner that is a convincing simulation of a live concert hall experience. Current multi-channel systems do that quite well and they are getting better. I simply don't agree good multi-channel does not exceed stereo's realism capability. If this is your conclusion, fine, but first have a listen to some fine recording played on a well-set up multi-channel system.
Bill Bailey
_______________
Beauty? Or Truth?
...you either haven't attended enough live performances, you have a very poor memory for sound, or you'd better get your hearing checked....they were proof that AR speakers could under the right circumstances produce sound remarkably close to live music, at least the way it sounds in the place the musicians are playing.
And we're talking about AR-3s driven by Dyna MK III amps. Righty-O !
rw
In highly contrived demonstrations where specially made recordings having no reverberation because they were made outdoors were compared side by side to a live performer, the capabilities of the AR3 to reproduce accurately were impressive. However, under real world conditions with commercially made recordings played in the home, the results were entirely different. The problem is the state of the art is still far too primitive to make that possible and the larger the venue where music is normally heard, the greater the disparity between what is experienced live and the sound of the recording. Furthermore, even under comparably contrived conditions, most loudspeakers made today would fail the AR test miserably.
what do you consider the SOTA for audio now days?Which amp, source, speaker, etc.?
From the tenor of your opinions, I would guess you go over and hang with Big Andy every Saturday to listen to your discs....and validate your opinions.
Later
D
"I have a sound system which I'll put up against anyone's."BTW, the K-P is a Frankensteined Dynaco amp using MOSFETs. Peterson is the guy who bought the remaining Dyna inventory back in the 80s when the company tanked.
rw
he thinks/says what he does.Amazing.
Later
D
...just has to appreciate someone like Soundmind that makes himself such a HUGE target! A person that spouts off like he does and is so unfailingly wrong is just too hard to resist! :)
...most loudspeakers made today would fail the AR test miserably.You need to get out of the house more often if you really believe that about AR-3s. :)
rw
Are you still a moderator there? Are you still keeping discussions over which Costco multichannel HT system under $400 is the best one from turning into a flame war?
At the expense of confusing the issue with facts, I have posted here far longer than over at AR. (Hint: click my moniker in both places and compare the dates.) Actually, it was that same morbid human fascination as with staring at a car wreck that originally drew me to trying to understand the original characters over there. I marveled how guys like you (as skeptic) would spill countless pages discussing that which you believe does not exist and wondered why.Eventually, most of that crowd led by mtrycrafts fled. Actually, he might have been banned there as he was here long ago. He now resides as "Audio Samurai" over at AH. Now, that's priceless!
Are you still keeping discussions over which Costco multichannel HT system under $400 is the best one from turning into a flame war?
While there are indeed a number of noobies seeking advice, very few threads need to get locked down any more. There was one recently, however, where a new guy wanted to bitch about AK. Bad form indeed.
"Actually, it was that same morbid human fascination as with staring at a car wreck that originally drew me to trying to understand the original characters over there."And that I suppose that is what keeps you there in the aftermath of the wreck. A sense of superiority. Those with a tiny bit of knowledge however inadequate or out of context are miles ahead of those with none at all. So what's the best MP3 player for under $100 today? Which store has the best "deals" on speakers, Best Buy or Circuit City? Which audiophile speaker wires to hook up my rear speakers to my $200 HT receiver? What's the best speakers for my computer? And to think it was once far better than this board. Eric still minding that nursery school for retards and dummies? Still got any semblance of a useful discussion pigeonholed into a small corner called "the laboratory? Well if there's nothing else to massage your ego, you can always do a bit of Bose bashing. That usually works...for about 30 seconds.
And that I suppose that is what keeps you there in the aftermath of the wreck.It's the concept of volunteerism I practice at church, in my neighborhood, on the web, and elsewhere.
A sense of superiority.
I'll leave that to those who make comments like this:
"First of all, I'm an electrical engineer who has purchased and installed well over one million dollars worth of cable of every conceivable type.
Me, I've built power plants, steel mills, electronics plants, telecommunications networks, data centers, and a lot more and I've passed on opportunities to work on the space program and on nuclear submarines.
He said I had too much money invested in houses. Since then, I've made over a million dollars profit in real estate."
But then a diner seeking a fillet mignon and a great bottle of claret would find pablum totally uninteristing...as I find you.If you want to perform a really useful service for children, why not volunteer to read stories to 5 year olds at your local public library. That would be far more valuable than pretending you know something about audio equipment to those whose minds have not caught up to their body's chronological age and giving them advice on which portable cd player works best while jogging.
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