 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
69.199.215.166
Ok, I have to admit... I have not totally bought burn in arguments for audio. For something like speakers I can see it (e.g. large mylar panels) but people insisting you wait 123.5 hours before serious listening to me smacked more of psychology than science.I recently did an opamp upgrade, and the initial results were horrid. Upper end harshness (it was previously very fluid). However, sticking with it, I find things getting better. Is this in fact more legit than I thought? Is it measurable? Opinions from seriously jaded/suspicious folks would be appreciated :-)
Follow Ups:
You can hear it for most any component.Look, colors fade on cars over the years.
Opening and closing a door makes it easier to do over the years.
Everything breaks in with use.
For speakers, like doors I guess, constant motion ought to just mellow out the material.
I know fostex drivers take maybe 100 hours. Before that you have to be careful what amp you use with them. After break in, what amp you use seems to matter less.
I don't really know electron theory, but having electrons pass through and through something is likely to have some type of effect.
For amps, you can hear the electronics mellow out. In audio, it seems that the more it is used the more it mellows, like the paint on a car.
And if you go to a place like Jamaica, where they may play their stereos from dawn to dusk every day for years, you really hear a big difference there in the actual sound of the equipment.
"And if you go to a place like Jamaica, where they may play their stereos from dawn to dusk every day for years, you really hear a big difference there in the actual sound of the equipment."Eh! Hrrrm, I think the explanation lies somewhere else on that island. :-)
/Peter
.
nt
That has to be the most irrelevant answer I have ever read here, and I remember plenty of doozies!
It seems to me that with the natural variation in individual units, there should also be variations in break-in behavior. Each unit should reach its peak at a slightly different time. That peak may be, say, after 100 or 200 hours, after which it settles into a level that doesn't match the peak. Or the peak may be new out of the box, and it doesn't perform as well after run-in. I'm suspicious of the unending mantra of reviewers that everything only gets better over time.
improvements - after a few weeks of burn-indissatisfaction (or boredom) - after a year or so of burn-in
...is any sort of ferrite. Try it for yourself and see. Add ferrites to a power cord or interconnect and things will sound better at first. Blacker background, less grain, et cetera.Leave them in your system for one month and then take them out again. You will find that now it sounds better when the ferrites are removed.
. . . and without wishing to open a can of worms here--I have had the same experience as you, only the length of time between installation and removal was probably longer.Until I saw your post, I ascribed it to hearing the increased quietude (upon installation) and being so impressed with it that I didn't notice how everything "closed in" at the same time. One day I decided to take them off and discovered a whole wide vista of space open up, with no noticable increase in noise or grunge.
I thought it was just careless listening on my part. Either way those ferrite clamps are sitting in my parts box now . . . ;-)
Makes one wonder, is that why I see used ones for sell on Agon. I have heard in other forums just what you described in your post.
the tweaker can indulge in repeated rounds of improvements and gratifications.
s
Coming form an engineering background I thought break-in for electronics were all BS and credited it to psychological factors and getting "used" to the sound. But after a tube preamp purchase and noticing a sudden change in sound (for the better) and purchasing a Philips 963sa and preferring the up-sampled sound to the non-upsampled sound (it was smoother in the beginning) and after many hours of use comparing the same two mode on the same player and finding the non-upsampled sound more pleasing -- I became a believer.
Amir
I’m not sure about burn in for solid state or passive components, but I’m pretty sure it makes a huge difference with tubes. Several years ago, I bought two matched quad sets of KT88 tubes. I could not differentiate between either of the two sets when auditioning them still new. They both sounded exactly the same.I kept one set in and after about 85 hours I noticed a rapid change in sound. To verify this was not my imagination, I compared the burnt in set with the boxed virgin set. I was originally planning to test this blind, but it was clear I didn’t have to – big difference in sound between the burnt-in tubes vs. the virgin set.
Fortunately, the burn-in also improved how the tubes sound.
I mean, calling for comments from suspicious/jaded people will only get responses that debunk break-in effects, right?But you heard it for yourself. Take those opamps out and put some new ones in of the same make/model. I'm guessing you'll hear them break-in again, just like the last time.
I don't notice sonic changes in all my equipment. My Rotel amp, Paradign Atom speakers, my current CD player, and certain cables all sounded the same to me with continued use as they did starting out.
But my tube amp sounded thin and unexciting for the first week. I've changed capacitors in gear numerous times and it ALWAYS starts out sounding fairly bad until they get 20 or so hours on them. I had a silver interconnect cable that had wonderful treble, but was definitely tilted towards that treble for the first month or so. Then one morning I turned the system on and BAM, beautiful midrange and bass along with that great treble.
I agree with Abe Collins below that some breaking-in can be psychological and that the listener is just getting used to the sound of the system over time. But I've had enough personal experience to know that it's not ALL psychological and that break-in on certain components is very real in my experience.
I think I am just looking for responses from people who were similarly surprised (maybe some enlightnment, maybe some cheap and positive entertainment along the way as well). As I said, break in for certain things I buy, but opamps? It surprised me... and I am curious about whether it has been measured.Your silver interconnect cable experience does set my radar off a bit... who knows though... could be another surprise laying in wait for me.
mdl
And yes, it sounds a bit strange that an opamp could break-in, but I don't really KNOW for sure. Maybe it was other components in the amp, such as capacitors recharging etc. that caused the sound change you noticed, and not break-in of the opamps.And regarding my silver ICs. I also thought it a very strange to get that overnight change in sound. But I hadn't changed anything since I put the ICs in. I didn't even do something as simple as reroute any cables. So it's my assumption that the wholesale change was due to the IC breaking in, but that's just a guess.
I still stand by my earlier post that break-in of certain gear and components is very real, but I haven't measured this except with my ears.
On Cartridges, new tubes, CD players, speakers, tube amps.....absolutely. I find about 40-50 hours to be sufficient.
NT.
Could be..not familiar with those. I understand some gear takes 100 or more hours.....but I am guessing if you look at a curve, that the first 50 hours may give the greatest degree of burn in. My various Cary components say they need 100, and I could really hear a difference after 50 hours.......but at 100 maybe only a little more improvement? Hard to say really.
When I first brought home the Arcam Alpha 9 CDp I am using, new out of the box hooked up turned on, sounded like crap. Sound was tight, highs brittle, bass lite, dead. The thing took almost 100 hrs to burn in.I recently bought a new pair of 60s NOS Siemens CCa 6922 tubes for my Sonic Fontiers Line 1 preamp They didn't start to sound decent until I had about 25 hrs on them. Now with about 50 hrs on them they sound pretty damm good!
I am from the camp, equipment needs burn in time.
IMHO, break-in is total BS.The idea that a mfg. would allow an amplifier/ pre-amp/ cable (laughable) or cd player to leave the factory sounding "edgy and strident" due simply to a lack of break-in is ridiculous. Why risk the consumer hearing the product of their efforts at anything less than it's best.
Yet, manufacturers allow the break-in myth to persist because it is a way of avoiding rampant returns by customers who are furious that their new cable, amp, pre-amp, speaker, etc.. didn't "totally transform" their system as they hoped. "..Well, Mr. Customer, just give it a few hundred hours - the imaging will sharpen, resolution will improve and it's PRAT will certainly peak by then!"
They know full well that long before a few hundred hours have passed, the customer will have grown used to it's sound, taken mental ownership, and will probably have re-read a dozen times the glowing review(s) that led them to buy the product in the first place.
Even in the case of speakers, I find it to be nonsense. ..I bought a pair of PSB Alphas for my office. I hooked up both speakers, but played music only through the left (use the volume knob to attenuate the right) overnight. The next morning I set the speakers next to each other, hit the "mono" switch and switched b/w the two. Not me, nor my wife could hear one speck of difference b/w the two speakers. Case closed.
All of those little electronic parts in mass manufacturing are run through rapid aging tests to see what happens to them over time, so, like a part can be aged in 48 hours equal to 10 years or some such thing. But wait, there's more.Manufacturing has become more precise. Resistors meet tighter tolerances today than they did 20 years ago. Sounds nice, right?
Put the two together. What QA'ing has done is allow them to know what happens over time and incorporate that into what they make. As a result of this, sometimes you find that you can buy soething that is quirky, or doesn't work at first, and after you use it for a while, it does. This doesn't happen often enough for everybody to see examples of it, but I have seen this behavior a couple of times. Also, we know that there will be an initial period (at least 48 hours) with some of the basic electronics, especially capacitors and CMOS circuits, where there will be a manufacturer-recognized break-in period.
Many high-end audio manufacturers actually perform the initial break-in before they even let the unit leave the factory. THey might, for example, run an amp wide open for a couple of days, and then check the bias, possibly adjust it, and then ship it. OTOH, mass manufacturers who do not do this know the specs after break-in has occured, and ship totlly unbroken-in stuff.
In 1980, nobody had ever heard of break-in on the listener end. YOu'd see a hi fi company actually use a meter and test the individual parts themselve some the bench before using each one, making all the measurements. I read some interesting material from a sansui collectors site about all the painstaking work they would do making an amp. Otherwise, that kind of accuracy just didn't exist at all - mass manufactured electronics just didn't meet the tight tolerances it does now.
I have experienced break-in for sure with an amp. Absolutely no question about it, and fairly tested as well, and widely corroborated with other persons who purchased the same unit. I broke the unit in using a pair of 8 ohm resistors, and not my ears. I'm sure that part of break-in in general is subjective claptrap, but I also know these things really happen. And where mechanical movement occurs, it's a foregone conclusion.
.
"I'm sure that part of break-in in general is subjective claptrap, but I also know these things really happen."
I have experienced break-in of an electronic component. Further than that, I can't say which part.Or if you're asking about which part does not break-in, well, I don't exactly know that either, except to refer to outlandish claims, such as claims that I just can't corroborate that are also said to be vast, sweeping changes. There is questionable testing to consider when a person just listens their way through the break-in period. Memories of sounds don't stay constant over time - the listener changes upon exposure/conditioning to new equipment.
.
"There is questionable testing to consider when a person just listens their way through the break-in period. Memories of sounds don't stay constant over time - the listener changes upon exposure/conditioning to new equipment"If you don't know where the boundary is, how do you know it is not ALL pschycological?
with that amp. Out of the box I didn't like it as much as a roommates Sony, and it was irritating another roommate as well. So I wanted to try this break-in thing and see what I could find. How to do it?I chose a specific track on a CD at a specific level of gain. I watched the amount of break-up occuring in the woofers. I took the amp off the system and drove resistors with it for 90 hours. I repeated the test, and the break-up was considerably less. This was a visual test, so I didn't move the speakers at all and sat in the same position each time.
Now at this time can I formally ask that I remembered what I saw, but in retrospect I see that there's room for subjective aspects even with the visual test. Both myself and my roommate at the time were able to comment after the 90 hour period that it was not so intolerable. The switching back and forth of amplifiers, then, was between another brand of amp and that one, but that one, again, was not broken in by ear.
.
Gve me strength!
Go ahead, say something. Sounds crazy? Say something. You were altogether terse the first time, and once should have been enough.As I'd guess, there's linear travel and non-linear travel, and there is break-up which is not specifically beyond linear travel range but contortion prior to that. That much is recognized, and the relationship between amp and speakers is as a single circuit.
.
Irrelevance, ambiguity, vagueness, what a waste. You probably have a potential for constructive comments, but you're not using it.
.
You are obviously drooling for a fight, but you are not going to get one from me!Ciao!
Your posts are terse at best, and no doubt what's in your mind isn't making the page but you seem to expect that it will. Your interpretation of what I've said is equally lacking. At least I've given you the benefit of the heads-up you've needed to know that you are not communicating better than the average autistic.Ciao? Let's take that across the board. Contribute, or buzz off.
.
BS.....I have done blind tests with audiophile friends that hear the gear "out of the box" and then again a week or two later. HUGE difference. You are dead wrong.
how the heck could that possibly be a "blind" test??
Because I swap in the same components (ie tubes, cables and a CD player for example) that have not burned in yet....and dont tell the visitor which one he is hearing. Get it? The difference is VERY obvious.
nt
I guess a Mercedes should be broken in when I drive it off the lot!poorly informed!
what an awful analogy. The fact that an internal combustion engine - with it's hundreds of high-friction interactions b/w parts - may require break-in before achieving optimum performance in no way supports the arguement that an electriconic device needs one. Absurd.I work for a european car manufacturer and as such I am given a new company car every 5,000 miles. ..I have had literally 40 - 50 new $25-50,000 cars over the past 10 years (not a boast, I didn't buy them, it's simply a perquisite of my job). While I have often noticed that the engines performance improves SLIGHTLY during the first 5,000 miles, I have never found the electronic speedometer, interior lights, trip-computer, etc.. to improve w/ use.
I think your grasping at straws actually supports my arguement.
I too have never seen any of the knobs. buttons,lights ,any of the exterior parts of my audio system improve with time. Sorry, I just couldn't resist.
"Case closed"
LMAOWTIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You haven't heard it, so it's BS. I have, so you're clearly deaf.Next topic :-)
"...so you're clearly deaf"Not so. I have excellent measured hearing and listening skills that have been honed by a lifetime love affair with music. I hear nuance, understand it and know it's place in music. Don't impune my hearing and listening skills - I'd stack them against anyones.
You'd lose
What, did I forget the smiley?There are only a few reasons why people don't experience audible break-in issues:
l. They haven't heard them yet
2. They've heard them but don't recognize what they're hearing.
3. Their system is a tad low on resolution
4. They're deafTell you what. Buy yourself a pair of Gallo Reference 3s or an Ack dAck 2.0 with the teflon cap option and try to listen through the first 50-100 hours without admitting there's something to this break-in stuff. No, I won't pay for it :-)
Oh, and I'll bet I've been a music lover and serious listener for a lot longer than you have (I co-owned a small record store in the late l940s while at college).
the reason people do hear break in is that their ears and brains have gotten used to the sound.I've heard gear sound better over time but since I know it could easily just be me getting used to the sound I'd never make the foolish claim that anything else was occuring (or at least I wouldn't make that claim without a caveat).
"Where are we going? And what am I doing in this hand basket?"
.
..I mean, it's not like any of this stuff really matters in the grand scheme, right?
(nt)
... who believes that all well designed electronics sound the same, all cables sound the same, and there's no such thing as break-in ... own a Bryston 3B-SST & BP-25, a Sony SACD player, Vandersteer speakers, and Cardas cables? You're either confused or a troll.Maybe you should take some of your own advice and buy a Panny XR70 receiver, a Toshiba 3960 DVD player, and a spool of Radio Shack 16AWG. And then see if you still like your system.
Dave
Dave. I'm 5 days in on the burn-in period of a Panny XR70 receiver right now. It is sounding very good and quite high-end to my ears. Yes, I believe in burn-in. But I also think you should try to listen to one before you put it on here as something used by peasants. BTW, it's 14-gauge Radio Shack wire us redneck white-trashers are experimentin' with, not 16.
I wasn't trying to slag the XR70.I have some good sounding cheap stuff too. There's a mid-priced system in my bedroom, a cheap system in the rec room & patio, and a mixed bag in my office. I even use 14 AWG Radio Shack zip in the rec room and 12 AWG extension cord to the patio speakers.
My Panny F87 and Onkyo TX-8511 sound pretty darn good together, but they don't sound the same as the stuff in my living room, and that was my point.
Dave
Going into the Panasonic digital from the Toshiba with the RS zip will be a better bet to some people, so what's the point? And some will say the sound improved after 100 hours too:)steve
I don't own a Sony SACD player - I own two Sony 400-disc CD changers (which are definitely NOT audiophile approved).I do believe that differences b/w amps are so small as to be negligible. I own Bryston gear because of the warranty, the fit/finish, and because their gear is apt to last me the rest of my lifetime. I had a B&K amp that literally blew up (nearly causing a fire) so I resolved to buy something with an impeccable reputation for reliable performance.
I've never suggested that there exist no differences b/w speakers. I own Vandersteens because they sounded the best of the 10-12 speakers that I listened to before making a purchase decision. The fancy Cardas speaker cable I use to hook them up were thrown in by the retailer (because - he claimied - he was not able to offer any discount on the speakers).
Yeah, I mistook the CDP-555ES for the SCD-555ES. But my point remains. If you really believe what you routinely say, try changing your gear for a cheap receiver, DVD player, and generic cable and see if you come to the same conclusions.Dave
Dave,I have on many many occassions done precisely that. Over the years I have owned many mid-fi brands including Onkyo, NAD, Yamaha, Denon, Sony etc.. and I have on numerous occassions swapped pieces in/out of my system to see what I can detect.
Most recently, when my B&K amp blew-up I brought my NAD 7250PE receiver to my main system to drive my Vandersteens. ..No discernable difference. After buying the Bryston Amp I swapped it in/out w/the NAD - again, no difference. And so on and so on. I have an NAD 540 CD player in use in my office - it works beautifully, but sounds no better than my Sony changers.
As for speakers, I have had Polk Audio, Spica TC-50's, PSB Stratus Minis, and finally the Vandersteens. At no point did I ever struggle to hear differences b/w these speakers.
You have great hearing and knows what to listen for, but still fail to hear differences between amps and break in.LOL!
You´r funny boy!
/Peter
I'll go one farther still. You'd have to be foolish to think even two identical amplifiers from the same manufacturer with successive serial numbers would sound exactly the same given the wide use of 10 % tolerance parts, etc. As a guitarist, it's tabu to purchase a guitar without playing the exact instrument your purchasing because every single Martin D-35 for example sounds a little different than every other Martin D-35. Same holds true with audio. Smaller differences in electronics than speakers, but differences non the less. Just because you can't hear them doesn't mean they don't exist.
t
You couldn't have ever owned a pair of Fostex FR based speakers.
If you had you would know there is a such thing as breakin. A person would have to be tone deaf not to hear this.LOL
Geeeez I've seen it all ...Unbelievable!
Happy not listening!
I think its a little of both. While there might be some very minor changes happening due to aging, for the most part, equipment will have the same characteristic sound from the time you plug it in fresh out of the box to several thousand hours later.Much of it is psychological. Some manufacturers will tell you that break-in is 100% real to protect themselves in case you don't like the sound of their gear fresh out of the box. The theory being, it will sound better over time. Maybe, but we as humans also adapt. We want the gear to sound better and even if it doesn't get better over time, our senses adapt to it, we get used to, and it magically sounds better anyway!
And the dealer and manufacturer are happy because the finicky audiophile didn't immediately send the gear back.
Accuphase DP65V cdp or Denon DVD-5900 Universal
PS Audio PCA-2 Pre - Krell KSA50S - Tannoy D500 spkrs
Re burn in general, I have alway's wondered when burn in becomes burn out after all fruit ripens but then goes rotten!!!!!
Good question, I don't really know. I do know electronic devices I work with need time to stabilize before they'll hold a calibration but I don't know if it's burn-in or just warm-up (I think it's warm-up)I've been watching the "cable with a battery" that claims to remain in a burned-in state or something like that to see where it goes, some say it's BS, but I see batteries on the cross-over for the Vandersteen 5A loudspeaker and I know that guy doesn't BS.
Best wishes, Craig
"I prefer a bit of tape hiss actually"
-George Harrison
The goal of every reputable manufacturer of any product in the world is to have his product go out the factory door ready to use by his customer and perform exactly as he expects it to for a reasonably long life expectancy. Once the product goes out the door, the manufacturer pretty much loses control over it. In the case of an automobile engine, the cost of machining to the degree necessary for optimal performance would be too high so final machining is done in actual use as piston rings and valves seat themselves. The manufacturer gives specific guidlines about how to achieve this. In the case of audio equipment, this theory is folly. While manufacturers may observe that changes, hopefully minor changes occur in initial use, this can hardly be weclome news. He has no way to know if the changes will always be beneficial or where they will stop. He could just as easily break in equipment in his factory himself as part of his manufacturing process or order the components pre broken in by his suppliers before he assembled them to be certain that his final product meets his quality control standards criteria. Most changes in use come under the heading of deterioration, not improvement.
Soundmind, you are of... What are you doing here, don't let them catch you...
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Depends on who is counting???
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2025, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
