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my vote: Joule Electra and Vandersteen 5a. Awesome sound!!!
Follow Ups:
I visited dozens of rooms at THE and CES, and by far the best sound was in the rooms spinning vinyl. In these rooms I often sat for 20-30 minutes not saying a word until the side ended.In most of the rooms, which were playing CDs, I had trouble listening for more than five or ten minutes. I found that there was often a lot of chatter in these rooms, and not that much listening going on. What a waste of $10,000+ speakers and amps.
THE highlight of THE for me was the Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab room in which a $12,000 Avid Acutus turntable was playing a 45 RPM half-speed mastering of Patricia Barber's Cafe Blue through Mobile Fidelity's $1,000 OML-1 monitors. It was truly sublime, a very full, dynamic sound. I kept looking around for the subwoofer, but the monitors were pumping it all from lowest to high.
It was an excellent example of Linn founder Ivor Tiefenbrun's argument in the latest TAS roundtable that you're going to get much better sound out of a great turntable with a not-as-great speaker than you will out of a not-so-great turntable (or any CD player, IMO) with a great speaker.
had some of the best sound I heard at the show. They were using a pedestrian set of B&W 705's with the stock crossover bypassed along with four ASW700 woofers. The system was powered by their new version of the PDC 2.6P which contained 4-channels of digital amplification. It was draw-dropping to hear what the system sounded like using the stock XO's compared to the bi-amped DEQX calibrated version.Other excellent sound came from the TAD Model-1's in both rooms I heard them in, both rooms that used Gallo Nucleus 3's, the ARC room which was using Wilson Alexandria X-2's and the new ESS flagship model.
There was also a lot of very bad sound there IMO.
I heard the DEQX utilized in the Overkill Audio room. The sound of the system was terrific. I like the Overkills (Manger bending wave drivers). Overkill puts together a virtually complete digital system with the DEQX being an integral part of the system. The fact that a company selling a $70k speaker utilizes this crossover is a pretty strong statement of support.I believe the Audio Research room had the Wilson Maxx, not the Alexandrias. The Alexandrias were not at either show. Great sound in that room, certainly the best I've heard from Audio Research.
I had mixed feelings about the TAD exhibit. On the one hand, as compared to last years CES and CEDIA shows, they have tamed the hard metallic sound of the midrange and tweeter somewhat (though not completely), but the sound was not quite as exciting. Oh, well.
I also thought the TAD room and the Iso-mike demo using the TAD speakers were the best two rooms (both with Pass labs amps). The VTL/Wilson MAXX 2 room was also very good. But from what I heard others talking about the TAD room was most mentioned as a must see. Nice guys also!
I stand corrected. Looks like it was the MAXX that they were using.
Wanted to hear the Overkill Audio room but it was one of many that we didn't make it to.
IMO the sound out of this room was positively memerizing. The synergy between the speakers, EMM Labs gear, and DarZeel amps/preamp was truly something to behold. Everything else at the show ran a distant second.
Von Schweikert/Blue Light Audio/darTZeel/EMM Labs/Jena Labs/Silent Running Audio room. :)How's that for a cheap plug :)
AC: I would have to say the combination of personalities involved in that room made it such an enjoyable experience for me. Kevin and Florence (Von Schweikert Audio), Hervé Deletraz and Serge Roch (darTZeel), Ed Meitner, Andreas Koch, Greg Soo, Zanny and Deven (EMM Labs), Kevin Tellekamp (Silent Running Audio) were all incredible to spend time with.
Mark Senior, Greg Weaver and Michael T. Greene provided the laughs and one of them brought GREAT SCOTCH!!! Mike Lavigne really thought he could get used to the 18 year old Scotch :)
At one point Greg pulled out The Who's Tommy and Mike Lavigne and I almost shat ourselves when we heard it in multi-channel. Wish you could have been there when we played it.
Some of the most interesting music we played was a wonderful and very interesting composition by David Chesky which I think was called Area 51. Wow!!! Not your style, but you might have appreciate it.
YOu should have brought the heavy bag, I would have been in stitches. :)
The VR-11's were better last year because it was running VAC gear. The biggest problem with shows imho is also the room....I have heard several manufacturers sounding better in other homes, previous shows in other rooms, high end stores, etc.Also, too much emphasis on the speaker and not enough "credit" or "notice" on the upfront electronics..
I also noticed quite a change from day to day based on "warmup" and "tweaking" of the rooms...so it almost mattered which day you heard the room and of course, which recordings were played...
We heard a number of very fine systems at CES, but this was not one of them, in my opinion. This was a multichannel demonstration using no subwoofer and no center channel, and I actually liked this idea and support them for being adventurous.Their choice of music was woeful when we were there: an organ/brass fanfare thing that was slow and extremely boring, and I think something from Mickey Hart. The percussive effects were well rendered - and the surround sound effects were pretty spacey. It was all about the effect - but actually distanced me from the music, and did not communicate any emotion whatsoever.
Their demo reminded me of when stereo first came out and exhibitors played boring sound effects demo records at hifi shows.
So perhaps we caught them at a bad time, and should have stayed a little longer; and maybe requested our demo track that we had heard in many rooms. But frankly, I was glad to be out of there. The speakers are really ugly in the silver automotive finish (may look better in wood), and the DartZeel in gold does not appeal at all. Definitely not this little brown duck.
My CES travelling companion and I enjoyed a number of rooms far more. It's grudgingly in my top ten I guess; but just.
Regards,
Geoff
Hi Geoff,The difficulty for me in setting this room up was mostly in the selection of music to play. I have over a thousand SACD's, with many of them multi-channel, but I have never listened in anything but two channel mode. This was my first multi-channel system.
I was not please with my selections either and agree completely with you. Some of the music was a bit gimmicky, but others just completely blew me away. I was mostly trying them on the fly and some were hits and others were quite bad.
The brass and organ piece you heard was a brand new "not yet released" piece that actually is very dramatic in a slow building way. The sense of space and dynamics were incredible, but certainly not good for a short demo. I would not call it a very exciting release, but nonetheless outstanding. I listened to it quite a bit after the show and was really pleased.
The Kodo drums I thought were fantastic and very realistic. Any exposure I have had to live Kodo drums always has the drums alll around you. Two years ago at CES we had an opportunity to see Cirque d' Soliel and the drums were everywhere. The had extreme dynamics and depth and this system was the best reproduction of that experience I have ever had.
The single best selection I heard was a two channel recording of a piano and violin selection that had me near tears. It was wonderfully recorded and gorgeously played. I later found out it was one of John Atkinson's recordings and I cannot recommend it highly enough.
I really wish you would have let one of us know that you wanted to hear different music. We were playing anything anyone wanted hear and I would have loved your opinion with something you knew.
You should have been there Monday when we really got a grasp of the music :)
Geoff,i spent quite a bit of time in this room and can relate to many of your thoughts. a system might be doing it's job but the experience may not be satisfying.
i agree on the silver color of the VR9's and VR11's.....it does make them look particularly massive......and the gold colored face plates of the DarTZeel amps are an aquired taste.
i have yet to be truely 'moved' by multi-channel music in any system.....and i heard lots of 'over-cooked' multichannel in this room (i also heard some very satisfying multi-channel in this room). but you can't blame the system for the choices......the system did tell you exactly what the software was saying (whether you liked it or not).
i probably listened to 2-channel in this room for at least 5 or 6 hours over three days......with my own demo selections that i am intimate with; in the sweet spot. i would listen to this room and venture out searching for a challenger with the same music.....none emerged.
many other rooms would have some ultra-dynamic track playing at 'warp factor 9' and i would escape and return later to hopefully listen at typical listening levels. i would guess many others had this experience with this room.....if so, i would understand their reactions.
the dynamic capabilities of this system (with either the 9's or 11's....in 2-channel or multi) are staggering......and very tempting to always demonstrate. but once the shouting dies down the question becomes.....can it play 'music'. my opinion is that it can. it is truely full range (a true 15hz to 100khz), very coherent, timbrally correct, and capable of great delicasy as well.
it's too bad there wasn't a pair of VR9's set up in 2-channel only in a smaller room that would allow a more intimate environment to allow a different perspective of this speaker.
i have the same DarTZeel amps in my room now and own the same digital front end......so i have a pretty good feel for what was doing what in the room.
i have not heard a better speaker than the 9's or 11's......and this is based on a show environment......now if a guy had a proper, purpose built room......they would sound even better.
best regards,
mikel
Substantive musical information in any rear channel/speaker is a HUGE PROBLEM that really acts as a detriment to not only equipment but to the music as well.Very, very, bad demo, - IMO.
is this the real me, or a mere facsimile?
is moving on ?BTW, for someone who wanted to go, but couldn't get to CES, the internet coverage seems to suggest it was not that exciting this year. Other than the excitement over the VR9's, I haven't detected much enthusiasm.
I thought that the show was awesome...There seemed to be a lot of good new products at lower prices. I was especially impressed with the mid level priced components, many of which sounded pretty amazing at their price point. Many manufacturers who usually present their SOTA or "reference" products seemed to make a point of showing their other lines as well.
I only wish that I had had more time....
is this the real me, or a mere facsimile?
I appreciate your measured reply, and wish I had been more persistent and given the room another try. I certainly would have loved to have heard a two channel demo.As you know, there is a lot to see at CES and THE Show, and there were many rooms I did not bother with, and quite a number I wished I had seen. I'm amazed that there was so much wonderful sound to be heard - it was a very good show and I had a terrific time.
I understand how useful it can be to have a room on your agenda as one to come back to, providing a reference and an anchor. I was sort of "working" in AP1302 (Parasound JC-1, Sound Labs, CTC, TG Audio) and kept coming back there after my forays - for the company, the coffee and the relaxing sound. A system that did nothing wrong - and almost everything perfectly right. A classic walk-around sound - not a bad seat in the house.
My aim was to hear really good digital sources; and I tried to hear as many of the good ones as time allowed. Even this was not possible - for example, I really wanted to hear the Zanden combination, but the folks in the AvantGarde room claimed that their Zanden transport + DAC was too "green" to show off their system to the best; and they used a 32 bit Audio Aero.
I did hear many good players and although these were in different systems, I tried to focus on what the source was bringing to the equation - a difficult task, to be sure. We played the same song in a number of rooms - Aaron Neville singing "I Bid You Goodnight" on XRCD - and these were my findings.
- Harmonix/Combak room - Reimyo player with Reimyo electronics and a pair of interesting two-way speakers. Fantastic resolution of inner detail and pin-point imaging in a small room. Great precision and communication. This is where I first heard the Neville XRCD, so I bought it and took it around to other rooms.
- Argento room - Vitus amps, Avalon Diamonds, dCS stack . No complaints, sweet and detailed with superb extension, but did not quite communicate the emotion on this track. The Vitus amp had been damaged and could not run in Class A, so a bit unfair.
- Vitus room - Audio Aero player with the same Vitus amps as above, using small Sonus Fabers. Not a particularly entrancing presentation, and I blame the speakers.
- Joule, Elrod, Critical Mass Systems - a Wadia modded by GNS. The Right of Passage OTL driving the big Vandersteens - just awesome. The best vocal presence I heard at the show; absolutely melting in the mid-range, glorious indeed. A great room - though according to my companion, the bass did not quite descend to the depths on an Alison Krause MFSL record he knew well. I did not have his reference point.
- Accuphase SACD and Accuphase electronics with Avalon Eidelons - pretty diffuse sound. Lots of equalization from the fancy Accuphase but the music really failed to thrill me. A mainstream high-end Japanese sound.
- ESP speakers with Pathos tube amps and Accuphase SACD combo. These are fabulous speakers and sounded just unreal on a direct-to-disc LP on the Clearaudio-Phantom combination. Dynamics like I have never heard. On the CD track, did not measure up to the best - and I'm blaming the Accuphase. The ESPs have so much class.
- Audio Note (UK) - Audio Note transport and fancy Signature 5 DAC with some extra mods, Ongakus and Audio Note speakers. Peter Q drove me out of the room with some "System of a Down" tracks, but we went back in and played the Aaron Neville. Almost perfect in communicating the essence of the song. "Ave Maria" from the same disc was sublime.
- Ascendo speakers with the giant Convergent Audio monos, Reimyo player. Unbelievable soundstage and spread, just slightly lacking the necessary intimacy, but really great sound. Pretty ugly speakers though. This room was very popular - David Chesky and Ken Stevens and the Reimyo designer were in the room when I visited a second time.
- GTT room - EMM Labs duo, Lamm, Kharmas, Kubala-Sosna cables. Very good sound, close to the best but just missing out on the dynamics. I heard Steve Hoffman's presentation here too, so had a good reference point to the ESP-APL room. I'm thinking the EMM Labs is just a bit too smooth, slightly masking micro-dynamic contrasts, but these are just impressions.
- ESP speakers, APL HiFi SACD player, Jim Bongiorno amps (later replaced by Manleys). This was the best sound I heard at the show - it was at the San Tropez. I must have gone back to this room at least 4 times, after being there for Steve Hoffman's presentation. This room had the magic, revealing all the dynamics and inner detail, displaying stunning imaging and focus, fleshing out the baritone counterpoint with real chestiness. But most of all, it was swoon territory. The Manleys added mid-range reality that the solid state amps lacked, so it was better on the last day. Again, the ESPs are world class, but we heard them in another room with the Accuphase, so I had to attribute the truly mind-blowing sound in this room to the Alex Peychev SACD player. My pick for "Best of Show".
Other rooms where I did not hear the test track but where I really liked the sound.
- Einstein CD player with the new Acapella speakers - a fabulous sound, augmented by fine music selections (and a really nice German Pinot Noir on Friday night). A stunning version of Papageno's song from The Magic Flute" by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, and a Maria Callas aria from a 1950's recording that blew me away. I think the Einstein is really a good player.
- Merlins with the Convergent stereo amp and an Audio Aero player. Bobby is a very nice person and this system was as sweet as could be. Capable of spacious, deep sound on the Gladiator sound-track; and fun, fun, fun on a CD called "The Nada" by Kevin Johansen (worth seeking out). The Merlins are incredible speakers.
- Joseph Audio - Ayre electronics, Cardas cables. These are terrific speakers - they really sounded fantastic. Much better priced than the Pearls but don't give much away. I listened to records mainly here and can't recall the CD player.
- Audio Physic and Burmester - great sound, though $30k for the speakers shocked me.
- AvantGarde, Audio Aero 32 bit - dynamics on a big band track were out of this world, but so is the price of these speakers. $70k. Had a nice chat to the designer. They played a CD I did not know called "One Believer" by John Campbell from 1991 which impressed me, and I'll try to find.
- Weiss transport (a prototype last year) and Weiss DAC with Lamm Electronics and Wilson Maxx's. Better sound than last year, but the Weiss combo is very expensive.
And there were many others I haven't mentioned that were fun. Manley amps with Coincident Super Eclipse IIIs (I have the Series II) showed their colours, sounding excellent indeed. A BAT system with Epiphany Plus kicked butt on vinyl - but what were they doing so out of the way in a small room on their 10th anniversary (BAT owner here). Did not spend enough time in the Rockport room - it was always busy.
I don't mean to offend anyone by not mentioning your favourite room.
Regards,
Geoff
With all due respect Geoff, how can one judge any single component in a room where one is not intimately familar with the rest of the system? Saying you loved the sound of a room makes a lot more sense than that cd player sounded great.I know you mentioned "I did hear many good players and although these were in different systems, I tried to focus on what the source was bringing to the equation - a difficult task, to be sure."
I totally agree, very difficult and highly unlikely to come away with any definitives.
I'm going to try and make Montreal in April and didn't get to LV this year, so thanks for the blurbs!Take care, Chris
.....i completely forgot to mention that when i first heard this system late thursday nite it was hard and edgy (and not that involving) with the VR11's in 2-channel mode.the tweeters had been set up for a 'flat' room response.....but that turned out to be 'wrong'. there were other set-up issues that would pop up as they switched back and forth between the VR9's and VR11's.....or multi and 2 channel.
when you have such an ambitious system with so much adjustability it is inevitable that in a temporary show system and switching back and forth there are going to be tuneing issues.....and there were.
add the visitors varying expectations.....some want multi-channel dynamics others 2-channel ease and beauty.
in any case the system did deliver but had it's marginal moments.
sorry this is not a better picture.....but at least you can get an idea of what the room looked like
Isn't that Michael T. Greene on the left? I recognize the suit. :)
Nothing wrong with rooting for the home team, mind you, but you ain't exactly unbiased, or even remotely detached.Take care, Chris
In my opinion the people who thought that was the best needed to go into more rooms. The two times I heard it, I didn't get all tingly. Then again I had just come from rooms with large multiway, high efficiency units. Me thinks that all that room correcting electronic stuff was correcting out the dynamics, emotion and scale. When I heard the VR 11 last year it was significantly better (but no Siemens Bionor either).
.....i happen to agree with Quint and mes, there was this room.....and then everything else....in that order. to be fair, i didn't listen intently to every room.....but i did listen to many.i don't own (yet) VR9's, DarTZeel's, or Jena Labs (i do own emmlabs).
So the VR9 where that good.. considering selling the Kharma?/Peter
I´m aware of the upcoming new VR7 but this VR9... what´s that?/Peter
$60,000 pair of audio transducers seen here:
Oh, it looks similar to the skethces of the new speaker on the website. However on the site it says 2 x 10"ers but the show picture of VR9 seems to have 2x 8" ers and a sub at the back..?/Peter
The VR7 uses two 10.5" bass drivers in a larger sealed enclosure non-powered. The VR9 uses two 8.5" bass driers with the rear firing 15" driver, the bass module is active(powered) on the VR9. If you look the bottom cabinet on the VR11 and VR9 are identical- the VR7 is a slightly different creature because both cabinets are sealed(the bass and midrange), the presence of the speaker changes as do the lines of the speaker because of this
Tiredude: I think you mistyped. The VR7's need a much larger cabinet than the VR9's because they are indeed ported. The VR9's and VR11's have the sealed enclosure.Wish you were there. I had a blast and loved the system. I was working (if that is what one would call what I was doing) in that room for almost 12 hours a day and never got tired of it :)
Thanks!I guessed it was something like that. The show pics of VR9 looks almost like a VR11 cut in half.
/Peter
The Spendor speakers were doing the best they could, but knew some other Mammoth High Efficent offerings would have really sealed the deal. "Thank ya, Thank ya vury much"ProAc for cranking Led Zep in a largish room on a Tablette in a sea of "Little Girl with Guitar" offerings.
Edgarhorn on Cy Brennan Pre/Amp spining vinyl of The Ship, The Sea and the Rocks (4th movement from Sheherazade by Risky wit ur Korset Off)
Classic Audio Reproductions Hartfield 50 year Aniversary model with the Big Fat Band at full song
NFS Audio - Bamboo Curtain, Wine Cork Poppin and tune playing by guys with no sales in mind.
Audiona - September in the Rain "Trombone madness in a mellow tone" on Big JBLPro audio High efficient Compression drivers and 10 inch/18 inch direct radiators in a hotel room.
2AM Friday, 28th Floor Flamingo - feeling the street level outdoor bar techno/disco bass across the Strip at Cesears with the windows CLOSED!
Not attending a single HT demo.
Not having to be on booth manning anywhere in mobile electronics. All combined it sounded like one would be working at a mining Mill. Constant indistiquishable rumble. Gotta get those Babe posters for our 14 year olds you know.
EMM Labs with the Von Schweikert VR-9's. Sounded fabulous.David Shapiro
When I went in, - someone did a, - (IMO), - horrible multi-channel demo with TONS of LOUD musical information coming from the rear channels, - stuff like that really HURTS multi-channel IMO.But those are just my thoughts: I couldn't get away from it fast enough.
is this the real me, or a mere facsimile?
then again, maybe I'm biased? :^)
nt
Von Schwiekert also did VR4 Sr in St. Tropez with VAC's super coole integrated and an Oracle CDP. But the best Von Schweikert sound IMO was with the VR4 jrs in the Alexis Park with a VAC pre, Oracle CDP and the Spectron power amp.Cheers,
is this the real me, or a mere facsimile?
Herves new pre-amp prototype which was stupid good. Due out in final form in early summer (I hope). That pre-amp was mind blowing.
We are the Borg, prepare to be assimilated, resistance is futile.Sorry, Chris
Hairy ass, you know. I've refrained from overtly cheerleading given my system is basically that on display. The DarTZeel pre-amp was new to me however, and impressive. Ergo the comment. Can't we all just get along? :^)
I just think that when somebody asks what's the best, a person qualify their remarks with:'I have this same rig and still feel it sounds the best' is all.
Nobody wants to think that you're overtly shilling.
Chris
Chris: If Mes did not think it was the best sound he ever heard, I am sure he would not have bought it. :)Why would he ever have to disclaim that he owns the same system? I think you are just being overly critical. A dealer or distributor or manufacturer, yes. A user, no.
BTW, Not only was that my room, but I own the same system as well and I also sell all the equipment that was in the room and I also think it was the best sound that I heard. :)
my comment about the DarTZeel pre-amp should be considered shilling, even remotely. It is a prototype not due for production till at least this summer, which I've not purchased or even ordered. Perhaps there are other definitions of shilling I'm unaware of. The comment certainly wasn't intended to be a shill, it was in response to John Marks query. I think the amps are fabulous, but given I've owned them for a year and haven't commented on them here before, I believe the shilling statute of limitations is up. As far as my response to David Shapiro above, this was an inside joke to David, we spent a considerable amount of time at the show together. I spent 3 days of listening at the show and there were many phenomenal sounding systems I heard. Some highlights: The Audiopax room was beautiful, Kevin Hayes VAC room with Mike Maloneys prototype speakers was also beautiful, I could listen to those systems forever. The Gryphon room was great , not my cup of tea over the long haul, and egregiously costly, but great listening nonetheless. The soundlabs powered by the JC 1's in Crumps room were also very good, pristine sounding and very lifelike. The incredibly inexpensive (relatively) Almarro system was another I could listen to forever, relaxed with beautiful mids, if somewhat lacking at the extremes. The VSA VR-4 jr and Sr's sounded better than they should at the cost, the db 99's were OK but IMO not set up properly to bring out their potential. TAD room detailed to a fault and slightly etched, but may tickle some listeners fancy. Rockports were great, but I owned them also, so I best not comment :^) Alex's modded Denon was spectaular, making the ESP's sound better than I've heard them before. I spoke with Alex at length about his mods, and am very impressed with what he is doing/ going to do, and his knowlwdge. I may do some business with him in the future, so maybe I'm covertly shilling? Sorry Alex:^) Best of the show? Budget: Almarro. Mid-high priced: Tie:VR-4Sr's( VAC amp again!) and Audiopax, beeeutifully finished and sounding speakers. Ludicrous level:EMM/DarTZeel/VR-9's. Disclaimer: "I have this same rig and still feel it sounds best". Regards, Mark
To me, the Wavelength Audio/Cain & Cain/Nirvana Room had the most natural/non-electronic sound of the show.The Lamm/Wilson/Weiss Room also sounded as good, but completely different.
I also loved the Cain & Cain/Wavelength room. Great sound, very cool.-Eric
I don't think I've ever been as impressed by an audio system performance as I was by the Rockport Antares demonstration...
Could you tell us what the other components were?
Rockport was sharing a room with Jeff Rowland. They were using the 501 monoblock amps, but I didn't notice what preamp was being used (I assume something from JRDG). The CD transport was from Metronome (Kalista), and once again I didn't notice the DAC being used...
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