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In Reply to: Re: When does a better mouse trap turn distasteful carboncopy cloning? posted by Ed Sawyer on July 08, 2003 at 13:03:52:
It's not valid at all. If you didn't listen to both amps in a same system you cannot comment how they compare. You might have own GainCard for years, but you didn't own our amp and short audition at the Show, in unknown system and invironment, is not an indication of anything. The speakers used at the Montreal Show were brand new creation and how can you be sure that you were listening to the amp and not the speakers?For somebody not having technical background, the GainCard may indeed grow to a legendary status, as it seems to be your case, but then, I'm surprised you don't own it anymore. Was it because you saw those pictures, posted here few months back?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=104819#post104819On the contrary, I also present a link to Amp-1 inside look, which is a totally different ball game.
>>I guess another question is: would this AMP-1 exist or even stand a chance of being noticed if it had not been for the Gaincard initially?<< My unswer to your question is: probably not. I wouldn't even know that those chips are so good. So here's my question to you: Whould consumers benefit from the fact that only GainCard is offered to them and no other alternative exist, doesn't matter if better or worse?
I am still not sure how the others will accept the fact that the amps look indeed, sort of similar, and I'm also curious how this thread will develop. But one thing should be certain, we were not trying to create a fake GainCard. To some who lived with GainCard for years it may look so, but for somebody seeing both amps for the first time, the appeal may be completely different.
Follow Ups:
> > I am still not sure how the others will accept the fact that the amps look indeed, sort of similar,==Back when audio was "box driven"(could still be), many mfg'rs would offer a *black* version, of their *silver* version.
The AMP-1 looks to be the *silver* (w-gold knobs)version of the 47labs product. I know and understand the differences in the amps. Without judging the sonics, the amps -for all inents and purposes- look exceedingly similar. To the point of distraction. And it is kinda distracting.
> > To some who lived with GainCard for years it may look so, but for somebody seeing both amps for the first time, the appeal may be completely different.
==With such a simple platform as a gainclone, there exists a great opportunity for aesthetic enhancement, unique to existing designs. The 2 box channell and end caps structure, while not *the same* only serves to dilute the 47Labs original design methodology. In effect devalueing BOTH products simultaneously, ultimately. So now we should expect yet even more very similar designs?
TC
The major issue in the both amps' controversy, is the actual use of the four parts creating a chassis. You've probably also noticed that a PS case used by 47Labs is close resemblance of M-F X series cases, yet nobody seemed to complain.Your arguments are very logical and make sense. But it appears, that this method of building a small chasis is the best for that type of design. Should it be kept then, as 47Labs exclusive, without others being able to use it (even in different form, size and pattern)?
The market place has tons of products looking like the original with some differences: from cars to jeans to shoes to soft drinks. Ever wonder why all soda cans have same shape and volume? It is the free market entreprise and anything that is not copy protected/patented can be emulated.
> > . You've probably also noticed that a PS case used by 47Labs is close resemblance of M-F X series cases, yet nobody seemed to complain.==They're both round. The MF an aloomineeum extrusion with heatsinks built in and legs. Power Humpty is much larger metal(sheet? tubing?), black with insect like feet. I so very little similar design wise..
> > But it appears, that this method of building a small chasis is the best for that type of design.
==Perhaps, yes. Perhaps really just like anything else better and fresher designs appear everyday.
> > The market place has tons of products looking like the original with some differences: from cars to jeans to shoes to soft drinks. Ever wonder why all soda cans have same shape and volume? It is the free market entreprise and anything that is not copy protected/patented can be emulated.
==Taste. It's the real thing. Even if it's seaweed wrapped french fries, or saki and a cheeseburger?
TC
> > They're both round. The MF an aloomineeum extrusion with heatsinks built in and legs. Power Humpty is much larger metal(sheet? tubing?), black with insect like feet. I so very little similar design wise.. < <This makes me think you are forgetting that my amp is also much larger, different color and totally different feet (only 3 of them) ;-)
> > Perhaps, yes. Perhaps really just like anything else better and fresher designs appear everyday. < <
I dare to say that our chassis is much better designed and the fit is much better also. We are not using rods to hold it together, but press fitting, which is self centering and structuraly more rigid. Only 4 screws at the bottom provide additional protection. We chose clear anodizing as it seems to be more trendy thse days.
I never saw a real GainCard so I cannot comment on the taste.
> > This makes me think you are forgetting that my amp is also much larger, different color and totally different feet (only 3 of them) ;-)==It still *reeks* of the aforementioned "Japanese (47)" influence, from a purely cosmetic POV.
I looked at the acrylic model.
Why oh why was not that design or similar, the one to mkt? Way better appearance/cosmetics. Ninja pookey meets George Jetson. And if they (acrylic)are more expensive to produce, that's a *challenge* well worth persuing. To establish a "uniqueness" and identifiable, personal look. Definition of a well thought out product. As 47 had back when.
The "acrylic" succeeds on it's own right far far better (than AMP-1) as a way to show your consierable engineering/assembly skills. Me I'd be making hard maple ones.
And seeing the "acrylic" one proves to me that gaincards can be creatiive and unique. You have poisoned your own argument defending the AMP-1 "lookalike" by showing us the better design example.
TC
TC
Thanks for your appreciation. I also liked the acrylic one, but my partner, insisted on marketing the aluminum body amp. He probably saw a bigger potential in it.;-)Initial testing showed also that aluminum body amp sounds somewhat better than acrylic amp (uing same parts, the only exception being the pots). So the tubing must be doing something good to the amp's structure. I'm currently working on a custom order, which is a gainclone made out of maple and in a cube shape.So your taste is quite good. Will see how it turns out. If it will look good and sound well, it might be my next project, but don't tell me I'm copying your idea.
But the truly good GainClone amp will be a pair of monoblocks as this takes away the variable of PS cords (which affect the sound in a big way) as well potentiomemters will be out, blaming a preamp stage for their defficiency. I've built the prototype and it appears to be better than AMP-1.
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