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In Reply to: When does a better mouse trap turn distasteful carboncopy cloning? posted by Srajan Ebaen (R) on July 08, 2003 at 08:59:14:
I've owned a real Gaincard for several years, and have seen/heard the AMP-1 that was reviewed.Despite the obvious ripoff of and similarities to the Gaincard, and even at half the price, it still fails in my eyes. Here's why:
1) It's NOT a gaincard. There are those for whom only the original will do. The item is more than the sum of it's parts.
2) the ripoff of styling elements is not even well done. The proportions are all wrong. Feet are too big, knobs are too small. Powersupply has no elegance of form. Colors/metal treatment is garish in comparison. (intead of anodized black, it's silver and polished brass (gold?)... reminds me of the ugly Musical Fidelity stuff).
3) the people who would pay 1/2 the price of a Gaincard for a fake one, are few and far between I think. It seems the Gaincard syndrome(?) appeals to 2 types. Those who like and want the Gaincard and will throw down the $ to have one. And those who are too cheap to do so/think they can do better, and will build their own for a couple hundred bucks and be happy with it. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground.
IMNSHO, I'd think Peter (the builder of AMP-1) would be better served by coming up with a more original case design, something small and elegant that wasn't such a big ripoff of the gaincard case design. He had some one-offs he had posted pics of on DIYaudio.com forums I think.. those looked much more interesting/better/unique than the AMp-1. (the acrylic/heatsink/copper pipe one in particular).
BTW, the retail on the 50w Gaincard is $4000, not $4800. (www.sakurasystems.com). Also, the regular gaincard puts out more than 25W, measured at something over 40w from what I had read in various places.
Ironically, I wonder if this review will help or hurt the Amp-1's chances in the marketplace. Could certainly go either way I think.
-Ed Sawyer
Follow Ups:
I have a question to Ed Sawyer: Where and when did you happen to hear the Amp-1?
At the Montreal HiFi show this spring.-Ed
One: Listening at shows means very little IMHO how a SINGLE product within a SYSTEM may said single unit reproduce music in YOUR system... and i have been to more shows than i care to admit.Two: to say that unit "Y" sounds like unit "X", a reviewer should have had both units.
Enjoy the Music,
Steven R. Rochlin
They are not completely relevant to Ed's comments. He pointed out the design/ concept/ ethical flaws with the amp and I consider these more to the point than weather it sounds good or not.Later
D
to many audiophiles.
That what I thought. But AFAIK there was no GainCard featured in the same room, so you cannot really comment on sonic comparisons between the two units. It was also our early version and the amp supplied for the review is still different electronicaly. Our PS in some way is not as nice as the amp, but this is also one area we decided to cut the costs. But, it is made out of 1/8 steel tubing, which has much better shielding properties than aluminum and PS can be positioned right beside the amp without causing any interferences.You might not like the gold knobs and brass spikes, but we were not trying to create similar look to GainCard. In fact we were after totally different amp with different visual appeal and sonic presentation. If you claim that our amp looks and sounds different than GainCard, I think we succeeded.;-)
My acrylic amp was a sideproject and I still have plans to market it, although in limited quantities.
Of course I can comment on it. I *owned* a gaincard, knew it well. How is this different than Sirjan's review? he didn't have a Shigaraki there to compare with, and he didn't mention even reviewing the Gaincard. Seems valid enough to me, if you consider his review valid.For something "different" than the Gaincard, it sure looks like it's trying really hard to be LIKE the gaincard... yes, the knobs/feet/looks to me just don't have nearly the aesthetic appeal as the gaincard case. But that's just me.
I guess another question is: would this AMP-1 exist or even stand a chance of being noticed if it had not been for the Gaincard initially? Probably not. Anyway, imitation is a sincere form of flattery I guess.
-Ed
I'll weigh in here having read almost more than I can stomach.No, the idea of a small case in two mono halves is not original (Camelot phono stage reviewed some time back in HiFi News) and chip amps have been reviewed in the past as well (HiFi World reviewed the Final branded battery powered chip amp pre/power setup years ago) I seriously doubt that 47 labs could contemplate having pioneered either technology. If I build monoblocks, am I copying Quad II's or did that nasty Peter Walker copy someone elses idea in building them? Shame on him!
So, someone builds a chipamp in a dual mono case (both of which seem like sound engineering practice to me) (and with the gall to use an outboard power supply too, Shocking I call it!) and somehow this becomes a crime?
Peter has said that he wasn't trying to copy the gaincard but was develping his own design implementation as an offshoot of the work done by himself and many others in the DIY community who found (as many others in the past have) that chip amps could produce fine sound when well implemented.
Let it rest folks!
Drew
It's not valid at all. If you didn't listen to both amps in a same system you cannot comment how they compare. You might have own GainCard for years, but you didn't own our amp and short audition at the Show, in unknown system and invironment, is not an indication of anything. The speakers used at the Montreal Show were brand new creation and how can you be sure that you were listening to the amp and not the speakers?For somebody not having technical background, the GainCard may indeed grow to a legendary status, as it seems to be your case, but then, I'm surprised you don't own it anymore. Was it because you saw those pictures, posted here few months back?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=104819#post104819On the contrary, I also present a link to Amp-1 inside look, which is a totally different ball game.
> > I guess another question is: would this AMP-1 exist or even stand a chance of being noticed if it had not been for the Gaincard initially? < < My unswer to your question is: probably not. I wouldn't even know that those chips are so good. So here's my question to you: Whould consumers benefit from the fact that only GainCard is offered to them and no other alternative exist, doesn't matter if better or worse?
I am still not sure how the others will accept the fact that the amps look indeed, sort of similar, and I'm also curious how this thread will develop. But one thing should be certain, we were not trying to create a fake GainCard. To some who lived with GainCard for years it may look so, but for somebody seeing both amps for the first time, the appeal may be completely different.
> > I am still not sure how the others will accept the fact that the amps look indeed, sort of similar,==Back when audio was "box driven"(could still be), many mfg'rs would offer a *black* version, of their *silver* version.
The AMP-1 looks to be the *silver* (w-gold knobs)version of the 47labs product. I know and understand the differences in the amps. Without judging the sonics, the amps -for all inents and purposes- look exceedingly similar. To the point of distraction. And it is kinda distracting.
> > To some who lived with GainCard for years it may look so, but for somebody seeing both amps for the first time, the appeal may be completely different.
==With such a simple platform as a gainclone, there exists a great opportunity for aesthetic enhancement, unique to existing designs. The 2 box channell and end caps structure, while not *the same* only serves to dilute the 47Labs original design methodology. In effect devalueing BOTH products simultaneously, ultimately. So now we should expect yet even more very similar designs?
TC
The major issue in the both amps' controversy, is the actual use of the four parts creating a chassis. You've probably also noticed that a PS case used by 47Labs is close resemblance of M-F X series cases, yet nobody seemed to complain.Your arguments are very logical and make sense. But it appears, that this method of building a small chasis is the best for that type of design. Should it be kept then, as 47Labs exclusive, without others being able to use it (even in different form, size and pattern)?
The market place has tons of products looking like the original with some differences: from cars to jeans to shoes to soft drinks. Ever wonder why all soda cans have same shape and volume? It is the free market entreprise and anything that is not copy protected/patented can be emulated.
> > . You've probably also noticed that a PS case used by 47Labs is close resemblance of M-F X series cases, yet nobody seemed to complain.==They're both round. The MF an aloomineeum extrusion with heatsinks built in and legs. Power Humpty is much larger metal(sheet? tubing?), black with insect like feet. I so very little similar design wise..
> > But it appears, that this method of building a small chasis is the best for that type of design.
==Perhaps, yes. Perhaps really just like anything else better and fresher designs appear everyday.
> > The market place has tons of products looking like the original with some differences: from cars to jeans to shoes to soft drinks. Ever wonder why all soda cans have same shape and volume? It is the free market entreprise and anything that is not copy protected/patented can be emulated.
==Taste. It's the real thing. Even if it's seaweed wrapped french fries, or saki and a cheeseburger?
TC
> > They're both round. The MF an aloomineeum extrusion with heatsinks built in and legs. Power Humpty is much larger metal(sheet? tubing?), black with insect like feet. I so very little similar design wise.. < <This makes me think you are forgetting that my amp is also much larger, different color and totally different feet (only 3 of them) ;-)
> > Perhaps, yes. Perhaps really just like anything else better and fresher designs appear everyday. < <
I dare to say that our chassis is much better designed and the fit is much better also. We are not using rods to hold it together, but press fitting, which is self centering and structuraly more rigid. Only 4 screws at the bottom provide additional protection. We chose clear anodizing as it seems to be more trendy thse days.
I never saw a real GainCard so I cannot comment on the taste.
> > This makes me think you are forgetting that my amp is also much larger, different color and totally different feet (only 3 of them) ;-)==It still *reeks* of the aforementioned "Japanese (47)" influence, from a purely cosmetic POV.
I looked at the acrylic model.
Why oh why was not that design or similar, the one to mkt? Way better appearance/cosmetics. Ninja pookey meets George Jetson. And if they (acrylic)are more expensive to produce, that's a *challenge* well worth persuing. To establish a "uniqueness" and identifiable, personal look. Definition of a well thought out product. As 47 had back when.
The "acrylic" succeeds on it's own right far far better (than AMP-1) as a way to show your consierable engineering/assembly skills. Me I'd be making hard maple ones.
And seeing the "acrylic" one proves to me that gaincards can be creatiive and unique. You have poisoned your own argument defending the AMP-1 "lookalike" by showing us the better design example.
TC
TC
Thanks for your appreciation. I also liked the acrylic one, but my partner, insisted on marketing the aluminum body amp. He probably saw a bigger potential in it.;-)Initial testing showed also that aluminum body amp sounds somewhat better than acrylic amp (uing same parts, the only exception being the pots). So the tubing must be doing something good to the amp's structure. I'm currently working on a custom order, which is a gainclone made out of maple and in a cube shape.So your taste is quite good. Will see how it turns out. If it will look good and sound well, it might be my next project, but don't tell me I'm copying your idea.
But the truly good GainClone amp will be a pair of monoblocks as this takes away the variable of PS cords (which affect the sound in a big way) as well potentiomemters will be out, blaming a preamp stage for their defficiency. I've built the prototype and it appears to be better than AMP-1.
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