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In Reply to: Re: Tubes or Solid State? posted by John E on October 28, 1999 at 09:20:12:
Hi Eric,Personally, I've never heard tubes. Everything I've read and heard about them indicates that they are not for me, considering my tastes in music and listening prefrences. However, there's no substitute for trying. I would love to hear a tube amp or preamp for the sake of the experience though. If tubes are for you, I'd guess that maintenance, etc. won't be a concern, probably will become a "labor of love".
Anyway, you didn't mention if you already have speakers or not, which may dictate what you buy in terms of an amp. Why don't you list your room dimensions, budget, musical tastes and prefrences, other gear you may have and will be using. Are you going to build an entirely new system? This info will probably help others in giving you good advise, rather than getting "try this" or "try that" responces that won't mean anything to you.
You'll get good info and guidance here, but in the end, you'll just have to give them both a try to find out what's best for you. But this is a good start in doing your homework.
tube forum and expect unbiased opinions. WRONG!! The General forum is the best place to get more balance in opinions. (Actually, I'm curious as to why SS fans haven't requested their own forum - seems only fair!)There's nothing inherently wrong with SS - it's just a matter of taste and opinions. Just as some SS-based systems are harsh, bright and fatiguing, some tube systems are bloated, rolled off and have muddy bass. Excellent-sounding systems can be assembled using electronics based on either technology.
Dave van Harn
I observe that tube amps with bloated, rolled off and have muddy bass are
quite common even now a day, but SS-amps with harsh, bright and fatiguing sound were only common 30 years ago. It is true that some SET amp dose not sound like common tube amps like that of mine, but I often anoyed but it's rather harsh, bright and fatiguing sound.
> > > I observe that tube amps with bloated, rolled off and have muddy bass are
quite common even now a day, < < <
true, especially some of the budget amps. That said, there are alot more really good tube amps than there used to be.> > > but SS-amps with harsh, bright and fatiguing sound were only
common 30 years ago. < < <
Not true. there are MANY SS amps that are still harsh bright fatiguing etc. my bigest complaint is that most SS gear is harmonically lean. That said, ss has gotten (somewhat)better lately.
Jack
> I observe that tube amps with bloated, rolled off and have muddy bass are
quite common even now a day, but SS-amps with harsh, bright and fatiguing sound were only common 30 years ago. It is true that some SET amp dose not sound like common tube amps like that of mine, but I often anoyed but it's rather harsh, bright and fatiguing sound.>I don't think so.
Since you don't name names or define where you've heard them (in your system), I must totally disagree with your statments about tube amplifiers. None of todays tube amps that I've heard have bloated bass. Sorry. There's a problem somewhere else. And BTW, what about the lack of tonal differentiation in the lower registers of pianos on solid-state gear as well as digital?
You better listen again to ss amplifier with bright electronic signatures and lack of tonal information were common only 30 yrs ago. It's only in the last three or so years that I feel that ss designers have made inroads into the arena of musicality eg. the Levinson 336 amplifier that I reviewed this summer.
Myles B. Astor
Publisher
Ultimate Audio
I do not know what common tube amps in u.s sound like, but heard in many occsion tube amps in japan. My general impression on tube amps is not so good, they usually have slow bass and have no dynamic contrast at all, flatenning dynamics, which is seems to intended to cater to pop music funs by the way of sotenning the sound of too harshely recorde CDs. If it is called midrange-magic, i reject that kind of magic. The only exception of this is my SET amp by audio note japan, which is quite differnt from common tube amps. I think there is nothing in comman with other common tube amp sound at all. My set amp have much in common with SS amp than a usualn tube amp sound. When I wrote "harsh, bright and fatiguing sound", i did not think it was so bad thing at all. Some CDs have harsh, bright and fatiguing sound from the birth that what's wrong with harsh sound at all? Rather than sofenning music harshness is much more desirable for me. The only way to get good sound is tto choose right music and CD to play. I also disagree recent trend of ss amps which are getting softer and softer that. at the extream, exemplified by Jeff Rowland's SS amp, it dose not make out a contra-bass and bass-drum at all. If you call it musicality i rejct that kind of musicality only cater to pop music lovers.
I dissagree with your comment re. dynamic contrasts with tube amps. ONe of the aspects of tube amp performance (generally), which is superior to MOST SS amps, is the ability of tube amps to deliver excellent dynamic contrasts.A properly designed tube amp can have a very impressive and realistic bass performance. Certainly, it is more difficult to obtain, but not impossible.
Like all things, in life. There are some excellent tube products and some very poor ones. To my ears, the Audio Notes, you speak of, are amongst the poor ones.
Trevor
That excellent ss based system is as elusive an animal as a unicorn. In ten years of hifi experience - I havent had the slightest glimpse of the mythical beast. :)
This from a guy who is 100% digital (rolls eyes, shakes head, ROTLF).All kidding aside - I tend to agree with you - but the culprit is not the power amp it's the preamp. There are very very few good solid state preamps (why I don't pretend to know).
If you want to die by laughing, I will tell you that I prefer digital/tube sound over analog/ss sound too. :-)Of course, analog/tube is the way to go - and I will get there soon. So your laughing days will soon be over. Enjoy em while you can. :-)
Odyssey Stratos amp
Bryston B60 as a pre
ProAc 2s
Theta or Naim cdummmm......ok its just very good, not "excellent". As Rosanne Rosanna Danna used to say: Neeever-mind.
and not a subjective goal, and defined by your personal standards.SS audio designers such as Yves Bernard Andre, who attends probably 100 or more live classical music events per year, and is really focused on reproducing classical music, would probably disagree with you. I've heard an SS system personally tuned and tweaked by Mr. Andre, and it was superlative.
Perhaps he knows where the last of the unicorns live. ;-)
Dave van Harn
nt
Interesting thread. I ham-handedly tried to start a discussion about "mixed state" systems earlier.I still think there is merit in this discussion.
Just kidding!
NT
nt
Nuvistors were used in the original cj head amp--for they supply a large amount of gain and are supposed to be quieter--all with the attributes of tubes.My old cj EV20 used nuvistors in the stage of the phono section. Only problem with nuvistors is that they're expensive (around $40 each a couple of yrs ago), in limited supply and don't seem to last more than a year before going noisy etc.
I'd be real interested to hear folks reaction to the Music Fidelity amps that use nuvistors and how long they last.
Myles B. Astor
Publisher
Ultimate Audio
A year or so, bfore they go noisy!!!???? Yikes. One of my old Tek 'scopes uses Nuvistors and has been providing superb service, for several decades. Of course, noise performance may not be as critical, as in high fi products. Do you have evidence of more than one instance of noisy Nuvistors? MF is gonna be in BIG trouble, if this is the case.Trevor
Trevor:Yes it was more than once; it was for the entire four years I owned the EV20. I replaced the nuvistors many more times than I did the other tubes in the unit--which I think were 6GK5s--coincidentally, not my favorite tube either.
I'm glad cj went back to 6922s (a first for them) in the ART and is other versions, the 16 and 17LS.
Myles B. Astor
Publisher
Ultimate Audio
I would too. MF estimates a life of 100,000 hours but forgot to mention degredation of sound quality.
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