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In Reply to: A question for Mr. John Curl posted by Jerry Parker on August 04, 2002 at 08:13:41:
This thread has erupted into a flame war. I came here hoping that this would not happen. At any rate I have done amplifier comparisions, and sadly I have not heard a difference. Perhaps my hearing is truly poor? The ironic thing was I switched between my normal Technics reciever and a cheap Sony boombox. I would have expected a difference, but did not notice anything, except on transiants and at high volumes, which is to be expected since I was comparing a cheap amplifier vs a midrange one - the technics reciever allowed for more clean power output. Now, I know my equipment isnt exactly "high end" but I have asked several people if what I was hearing was valid or not, and they said it should. Two of which were electrical engineers and know about amplifier design. Why can't anyone explain to me the differences between two amplifiers? I mean, get as technical as you want, why one will sound better than another - and the difference actually be audible. I have heard no valid reasons as of yet why I should believe there is a sound quality difference at low power between a cheap reciever and a 10 thousand dollar amplifier. I hear over and over, that I should trust my ears. I find that to be extremely arrogant to assume that your ears are better at distinguishing sound than testing equipment. Humans cannot hear a difference between an MP3 file encoded at 256kbits from the original source CD - how are they going to hear the most minute differences between amplifiers?
Follow Ups:
for this statment.> > I find that to be extremely arrogant to assume that your ears are better at distinguishing sound than testing equipment.
Human ear is the most sensitive sonic detection gadget in existence.
Not meant to be a flame, really.What speakers are you using for this comparison? CD player? cables?
Likely, your other components are introducing such a sonic signature (more like an "X" in purple crayon) that you won't hear the difference between amps.
Take others' advice and walk into a hifi shop and listen. I build interconnects and my girlfriend can pick which pair is which 10x out of 10 on music she is familiar with - you should be able to discern different amps.
Since there is no such thing as a "properly" designed amplifier, it's all a matter of trading one sonic signature for another. Some of us hear beautiful music in what you would call "distortion" or "lies." Apparently our ears pick up on something that matters less to yours, and the test equipment.
Sometimes, I wish I was in your position - it would save a lot of time and money.
Your girlfriend can pick your cables out ten out of ten times? That is impresive. I think it would be interesting if you were to document this in double blind listening tests and show it to the folks who are in the "objectivist" camp. I've never bothered with such tests myself so I understand if you didn't want to bother but if she has such a high acuracy rate in blind identification of your cables I would suspect that you could offer up some good stuff on this issue.Alas it would probably be tarred and feathered if you got positive results. It seems the "objectivist" camp routinely ignore or attack positive results comming from James Boyk's research over at Cal Tech in his double blind tests. Still it might be interesting.
You were comparing a pre-amp and an amplifier together. There are two components in the amplification process, the pre-amplifier, which amplifies line level signals and operates as a volume control, and the amplifier, which takes the output from the pre-amp, amplifies it again and sends it out to the speakers. Both the preamplification stage and the amplification stage change the sound, so if you are strictly interested in hearing the difference between amplifiers, you need to listen to the same, seperate pre-amp and then switch amplifiers.You have to at least have decent equipment to hear the differences. The cheap speakers that come with most main stream mini systems won't allow you to hear the difference. Speaker cables also make a difference in the sound. With cheap speaker cables, it's more difficult to hear the difference between amps b/c less of the source is getting through the cable and it's being colored and distorted more than with a better, more expensive, cable.
Is there a good audiophile store in your area? [Not Best Buy, Circuit City, etc, but a small specialized store]. Get a variety of CD's (Jazz, classical, vocal, and whatever you like) and go to a high end shop and tell them you want to audition amplifiers. They will probably ask you what you have at home, just tell them that you are building a system after hearing your friend's setup. You could even tell them that you don't believe that two solid state amplifiers that output the same amount of watts could sound different. Listen to the same pre-amp and speakers and use the same cables. You could even listen to the difference between integrated amplifiers, even though that would include a change in the pre-amp stage, it would be the equivalent of the comparison you made earlier between the receiver and the boom box. You will hear a difference if your hearing isn't damaged, and you might catch the audio bug.
If you don't know of any high end stores in your area, post a message here asking if there are any good audio shops in your area.
Actually, I have heard several high end systems. I have visited a local audio store and they had a pair of 10K B&W speakers on display. I listened to them and was less than impressed. The subwoofer hooked up with them was terrible. They used extremely expensive cables in this installation, but the amplifier looked to be a Adcom or Rotel, I cannot remember, it was almost a year ago.Another experience, I have visited Ultimate Electronics. They had ML electrostat speakers along with Krell electronics driving the whole system. I WAS impressed by this system.
Finally I have heard Wayne Parham's (Owner of Pispeakers) system. It sounded very good as well, but he does not use "audiophile" components - just a crown amplifier and cheap 16awg speaker wire.
As for the system I listen to, it is not a boombox. I have attached a picture.
As for your analysis on speaker cables, I am going to flat out disagree with you. As long as they are of sufficient diameter, you are not going to hear a difference. Listen to what you said, "With cheap speaker cables, it's more difficult to hear the difference between amps b/c less of the source is getting through the cable and it's being colored and distorted more than with a better, more expensive, cable." Do you really believe that the loss of a 14awg cable vs the losses in the voice coil or inductor inside your speakers is going to matter? What about plain copper wire colors the sound? Same with distortion, how can a cable add distortion to the signal? I can believe a phase shift, but distortion?
In reference to your comment about speaker cables, It's not about what I believe, it's about what I hear. I was using monster cable $1/foot cable, and I changed it out for Audioquest Type 4+. There was an immediate and obvious improvement. I'm not an engineer and could only repeat what I've read in rebuttal to your comments, but the bottom line is that I hear a difference, and that's all that matters to me.
Jerry, why should you ask a question like this? Why don't you just go listen to a high end system? What's your problem?
The history of hi fi amplifier design goes back more than 55 years, and significant research was already available before that time. I have in my lab, one of the oldest tube designs (Williamson), several Dyna tube amps, and a whole variety of power amps, from my first effort 35 years ago, to my latest hi end product. ALL amps measure and behave differently. Some are faster, and have higher slew rate, others have only low order distortion. The worst are both slow and have lots of higher order distortion. However, even the best amplifier that I can possibly build will have a sonic signature, but hopefully not much of one.
Your overall attitude is like a high school kid wondering what difference there is between auto tires. Why do some cost so much more than others? How could someone explain that to someone with your lack of understanding?
What you should do is to look up amp design on the internet and learn what you are asking about. I use the internet in this way, and you can too. Don't think that I am being too hard on you, I was once fairly ignorant about tires into my '50's. Then I changed the tires on my old Porsche to better ones, and I was AMAZED at the difference, yet there was no obvious parameter that had been changed significantly. Still, it took a Porsche to show me the difference, I doubt that my Honda would have showed the difference in the same way. The same goes for amps. You HAVE to own a pair of good speakers and a good musical source to hear much difference between many amps.
Well perhaps at least high priced anyways? I have heard a B&W setup, and did not know what amplifier was being used. It honestly did not sound very good to me. I also have heard a ML electrostat setup with Krell amplifiers, preamps and dvd players. It sounded very good, but I have no basis to compare the way the speakers sound with a cheap 200 dollar reciever and the 10K Krell amplifier. Do you really think the salespeople will allow me to do that?Also, I was wondering if you are an engineer yourself? Do you work with amplifier designs?
Jerry, I have been a member of the IEEE for 38 years. I have been a member of the AES since 1966. I design amplifiers for a living, and am well known for my published designs. You seem completely unresponsive to ANY of my input. What is your math level? Can you do differential equations and vector analysis? Unfortunately, many serious articles on the forefront of amp design require this level of knowledge. However, a simple listening comparison can give you most of what you really need, since you are not designing amps for a living, like I do.
For the record, many 'engineers' don't believe in hi end audio, and go back to their meter reading. I suspect that you are attempting to 'set me up'.
> > I suspect that you are attempting to 'set me up'.finally, figured it out?
He was sent to this board to talk to you specifically, he doesnt respond to any other inmate.....we list is long enough.
I was not sent here to bash John, a user on another board told me to come here and be "schooled" by him. For the record, I am only 19 years old - I have not even graduated college. As for the math, none has been presented, therefore I have no idea whether I can follow it or not.My main questions are, what do in fact make audible sonic differences within amplifiers? Is it the power supply? What about the output transistors or tubes? Can't you even give me a simple explaination? I see it this way. I cannot hear a difference between amplifiers. I questioned this and asked knowledgeable people, some of which post on audioasylum. Everyone up to you has told me that the amplifier should not matter at low power levels. I mean look through my eyes for a minute, I have yet to hear a difference between amplifiers and was told by knowledgeable sources that what I was hearing was normal. Perhaps if you give me any kind of valid reason why I should think otherwise, I will research it further. Otherwise, all I have heard from amplifier supporters is that I should trust my ears, and well frankly that is not a good idea, since I cannot hear a difference anyways. Perhaps my hearing is truly poor, at least at hearing details anyways? I can hear up to 18khz, so upper frequency limits are not the issue, I am not deaf.
Jerry has stepped into a pool of grumpy old men who evidently weren't ever 19 years old in their life. Just how many hours or years of experience do you expect this young man to have in just plain *listening, let alone auditioning systems, attending concerts, learning to play a musical instrument, reading, collecting records, researching, experimenting?Jerry has some terrific qualities; the majority of which are well suited to being an excellent engineer.
Curiosity
Assuming nothing and asking questions.
Questioning Authority.Man, it's *real* hard to pick on a 19 yr. old who dares to ask some questions. No doubt a lot of the responses he's gotten will surely encourage and mentor him to pursue either audio engineering or building up a reasonable home stereo system.
I'll also say I think Jerry is close, since in my experience, discrete amplifier change - within the same power range, and not a 30 yr. old receiver to a pair of modern monoblocks - produces sonic changes that may be subtle. In my case it was a mod'ed Hafler DH200 to a ARC D130. Not terribly earth shattering; or that lameass TAS phrase "jaw-dropping"...
Hang in there Jerry. Not only will you outlive us all, but I expect you will do quite well with your life.
Thank you cdb, for the kind words. Surely I have not done as much experimentation as you all, since I was bit by the audio bug only 3 years ago. Back then I was the typical teenager who only cared about a loud subwoofer in his car, but wow have the circumstances changed.As for pursuing audio engineering, that is doubtfull. I enjoy audio reproduction, and like learning how everything works. But, I also enjoy computers and quite frankly there is more need for computer people than audio engineers. But yes, to get to the point I have gotten to now has taken a considerable amount of research and question asking. Hopefully in 10 years or so I will be able to design my own amplifier and explain to you all why there are no audible differences! :-)
Go back to where you heard the Martin Logans, have them switch out the Krells with the cheapest reciever you can find of equal power rating, listen and then get back to us.
He is not a 'troll', he is not a 'fool', he is a 'sophomore'! Now we understand you.
you are a veteran inmate and yet to master the AA lingo...> > he is a 'sophomore'!
"Uninformed Idiot" would be correct description. :-)
Wow, you are really mature. How old are you? What makes me an uninformed idiot and not yourself? You are just angry that I questioned your beliefs and do not believe what you have to say, I presume if I may be so bold.
You can't hear the difference between amplifiers. That way you won't be tempted to spend the money on them.It is an interesting comment on your education that apparently you have been taught, in the first instance, not to trust your own senses but to seek some "expert" validation of an abstract hypothesis.
If you want to experimentally confirm or deny your hypothesis, you should start by changing only one variable -- the amplifier -- and leaving everything else constant. I don't even think you'll have to go nutso on the tweaks and the wires, just have a decent source, playing decent music (acoustic music recorded in a "live" venue is my preference) through decent speakers. I heard the difference between a high-end Japanese receiver from the late 1970s (a Luxman) and Krell's small integrated amplifier on a pair of $400 speakers that had very little bass response below 50 Hz (Snell K-IIs). I think I was using generic interconnects and Monster XP speaker wire.
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