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In Reply to: On the economics of the Gaincard posted by dado4 on December 13, 2001 at 05:04:26:
hello,an audio company, like any other business out there, is trying to make money. if they can SELL an amplifier with cheap parts in a tiny aluminum case for thousands of dollars with idiotic claims and stupid slogans, they must be doing something right.
only the simplest can accomodate the most complex, eh? they forget to mention that included in the nine parts is an op amp which contains all sorts of transistors, resistors and capacitors.
keep in mind this is not a judgement on the sound (which is ok as a midfi SS amp that should retail for far less than a grand), only what i think the proper value of this item should be. it is grossly overpriced, seriously underpowered for an SS amp, and unlike the SET amps many people claim the sound similar to, costs little to make.
lets not get me started on their cables, the pitracer, and overpriced and underperforming humpty power supply.
regards,
chiggy
Follow Ups:
Let’s see, misleading slogan, product grossly overpriced considering its cost of production: “Perfect sound forever,” $15! My God, do think 47 Lab is behind the CD?
hehe.if it was, the cd would come in a beautiful black anodized aluminum case, have an intricate opening mechanism, very small illegible print for the notes, and cost $150.
regards,
chiggybtw, the cd-humpty, a tool used to create greater sound via electro-mechanico-RFI suppression would be sold separately for $900 and weigh only 12 grams!!! many critics would later argue that a tissue, no matter what kind of virginal rice paper it came from, should not ever cost that much...many will pay though and later claim those pathetic enough to search for value in our hifi just don't get it.
... may give you a huge moral superiority but would seem a little unfair. You might try comparing like with like, or maybe trying 'someone you own size', so to speak. Its clear, from examining your system listing, that you've largely left commercialism behind (which obviously works for you, and may well soon work for me), and so one wonders whether the criteria by which you assert your opinion are really applicable to this product.Another way of saying this is maybe the Gaincard has enticed dado4 towards a DIY perspective that he hadn't considered before, and that's to be encouraged. No? And surely, if you mentally put yourself in the position of a manufacturer for a moment, and realise the challenge that 47 labs makes to the hifi establishment, and its achievement in successfully straddling the 'normal' world of commercialism and 'ultra-fi' values (resonance theory/application etc.) - and indeed, timing of this challenge - you might think of the Gaincard as successful and unique?
hello,[... may give you a huge moral superiority but would seem a little unfair. ]
very very wrong. i'm not judging the product from a DIY point of view. i'm saying that the parts used to make the product, even after considering manufacturer markup, importer markup and dealer markup should not cost that much.
[and so one wonders whether the criteria by which you assert your opinion are really applicable to this product.]
are you saying that since i've gone the diy method i can't judge commercial products? how inane.
[Another way of saying this is maybe the Gaincard has enticed dado4 towards a DIY perspective that he hadn't considered before, and that's to be encouraged. No? ]
diy is to be encouraged. but poor argument. you're basically saying that its ok for the gaincard to cost as much as it does so that people can copy the design and get into DIY.
[, and realise the challenge that 47 labs makes to the hifi establishment, and its achievement in successfully straddling the 'normal' world of commercialism and 'ultra-fi' values (resonance theory/application etc.) - and indeed, timing of this challenge - you might think of the Gaincard as successful and unique?]
now i'm not sure. is this supposed to be tongue in cheek? are you seriously telling me to "realise" the importance of 47 labs and their so called impact on the world of commercialism and "ultra-hifi". the gaincard is very unique in a way that doesn't impress me. their marketing and promotion on the other hand has been very well done.
regards,
chiggy
Well, Chiggy, you may be Mr. DIY do it for cheap in my garage hero, which is perfectly fine, but I'm sure you haven't advanced the audio arts by one inch or made any contribution whatsoever.BTW, you haven't a clue what goes into putting a product to market in the real world. Forget the parts cost. That's trivial and a smokescreen.
Do you WARRANTY your DIY stuff? Of course not. Factor in the warranty costs.What about INSURANCE? For when someone does something stupid and comes after you?
Do you DISTRIBUTE? To do so, you have demo costs. Shows to asttand. Review samples. You have to give distributors a markup. You need to prepare promotional materials. You need to get approval as an electrical device in every country. You need to have staff to interact with those dealers. Try to distribute your DIY stuff, you will see.
You will also see that unless you DO have something a little bit more original than the I-did-it-myself-in-a-garage-with-some-cool-tubes stuff, you will be slaughtered.
Now, are you gonna try to get a product out there? You need to PROMOTE it. My guess is that a minimum 30% of the cost of a commercial hi-fi product is in the marketing. You need to run ads. Get your message out there. Get people to know your name.
Oh, and Chiggy - I don't know about you - but my TIME is valuable. I don't work for free. If I spend 20 hours building A DIY amp, well, at the cost of my time - not putting any of the other factors mentioned into play - it costs conservatively $3000 BEFORE parts.
Now think about that for a manufacturer, especially of small production numbers.
you're attacking me with some of the most childish commentary i've ever seen. the funny part about all of this is YOU OWN 47 LABS GEAR!!!!!!! + i've never even seen you post so i have no idea if you've even got half a brain.now lets see if i can put some of your very personal issues to rest.
[Mr. DIY do it for cheap in my garage hero, which is perfectly fine, but I'm sure you haven't advanced the audio arts by one inch or made any contribution whatsoever.]
glad you have a hero. never claimed to and wouldn't want to advance advance the art of audio. i doubt 99.99999% of audiophiles DIYers don't. whats your point? are you really comparing me to someone who claims to advance the art of audio, namely 47 lab people?
[BTW, you haven't a clue what goes into putting a product to market in the real world. Forget the parts cost. That's trivial and a smokescreen. ]
and please show me how you do....attacking without a single thought is mindless.
[Do you WARRANTY your DIY stuff?]
don't need to. i can fix it.[Factor in the warranty costs.What about INSURANCE? For when someone does something stupid and comes after you?]
who the F*** is going to sue 47 labs?
[Do you DISTRIBUTE?]
no, do you?
[To do so, you have demo costs. Shows to asttand. Review samples. You have to give distributors a markup. You need to prepare promotional materials. You need to get approval as an electrical device in every country. You need to have staff to interact with those dealers. Try to distribute your DIY stuff, you will see.]
i've had offers for my gear. i say no cuz my time is ridiculously limited. diy audio is a HOBBY, not a profession. fyi, i'm 23 and a med student. you really think i'll have time to do any of this fun audio stuff when i'm 27 and deep into my residency?
[You will also see that unless you DO have something a little bit more original than the I-did-it-myself-in-a-garage-with-some-cool-tubes stuff, you will be slaughtered.]
wow, you don't say. thanks for the marketing lesson. btw, wtf are you talking about? please tell me you're not into the audio distribution, marketing etc game. if so, whooppeee.
[Now, are you gonna try to get a product out there?]
i make more money playing with stocks.
[My guess is that a minimum 30% of the cost of a commercial hi-fi product is in the marketing.]
your guess you say?
[A DIY amp, well, at the cost of my time - not putting any of the other factors mentioned into play - it costs conservatively $3000 BEFORE parts. ]
so you claim to make $150 an hour. what do you do? do you price your time with other things in life?
[Now think about that for a manufacturer, especially of small production numbers. ]
you funny guy. you really think you taught me something about how to look at audio and the business behind it? do you think the audio world comes close to competing with anything of substance in the business world? i hate to break it to you, but two channel audio is a niche market and a very very small game. gee, is that why marketing costs are so high for wee little companies with big claims? did you even understand the point i was trying to make? do you even understand the idea of imo posts?
are you really saying that you are satisfied with your gear and are happy with the fact you paid more than 5 grand for a cd transport? or are you really just pissed with my commentary and can't admit it.
i found your post to be more of an attack than your take on my opinions for the world to share. please try harder.
First, if you were smart enough to do a search, you would find many of my posts. I don't own a Gaincard. I own a Flatfish and a Shigaraki DAC.Second, learn English. Like Capitals, punctuation, grammar.
Third, I don't give a rats ass about your opinions. Your first post was stupid. So your a med student. Good luck to your future patients.
So you build DIY gear in your garage. Great, rocket scientist, you can follow a schematic. That doesn't mean you know anything. I don't need some 23 year old puppy with a soldering iron to compare himself to any legit audio designer.
Jumping in on this thread to profess your opinion on parts cost, from your garage perspective, without having half a clue what goes into developing and getting a product to retail, is just plain stupid, as is your reply.
[First, if you were smart enough to do a search, you would find many of my posts. I don't own a Gaincard. I own a Flatfish and a Shigaraki DAC.]ahem. that is if i bothered to do a search on your posts. i know what you own...remember my last post. why tf are you bothering to respond to a gaincard thread then if you own some of their other products? why do you feel the need to take your audio equipment so personally? this is really something you should take up with a psychiatrist. i'm sure with your monumental $150/hr rate you should have no problem finding one.
[Second, learn English. Like Capitals, punctuation, grammar.]
as opposed to your english which is filled with a lack of intellect. when i bother to write, i do it well. when i respond to attacks, i play as i please.
[Third, I don't give a rats ass about your opinions.]
yes you do. thats why you bothered posting your opinions responding to my opinions. grow up old man.
[ Your first post was stupid. So your a med student. Good luck to your future patients. ]
i'm really smart. i shit you not. my patients are going to be just fine. this doesn't take away from what you really do. share share bobby.
[So you build DIY gear in your garage.]
funny, i don't have a garage. i do it in my second bedroom.
[ Great, rocket scientist, you can follow a schematic.]
not a rocket scientist, but a med student. i see the art of subtle sarcasm has blessed you dear bobby. a first cousin of mine is actually a rocket scientist with the navy. now HE is smart.
the funny thing is, i'm not really comparing myself to an audio designer. its funny how you see it that way. i posted my opinions on what I (read I) think the value of the gaincard is. your response was an attack on what i thought without any real thought. perhaps when your ass frees your head you'll come up with a clue.
[Jumping in on this thread to profess your opinion on parts cost, from your garage perspective, without having half a clue what goes into developing and getting a product to retail, is just plain stupid, as is your reply. ]
please share with us what goes into promoting a product. a product, no matter what company it comes from, will be judged in the light of other, similar gear. i don't gave a big doodoo what the cost of promoting a product is. if a company feels the need to raise the prices of their $800 amp to $3000 because of advertising and promotion, that's their business. just don't think people aren't going to judge that.
now please see to it you at least respond to my initial posts if you're going to bother to post at all.
Robert:Most of what you have said is true.
I would also add 2 more points:
A. Do you design, instead of just copying what others have already done?
To take the path of a given approach which has been previously unpopular (opamps) suggests that the designer has tried many other alternatives and found them wanting. All of that takes time, a pretty good vision/imagination, good calculation abilities to figure out how to make that vision a reality (so a prototype can be built), and a nose-to-the-grindstone attitude to insure that production realities do not deviate from the vision.
Copying what others have already done is a trivial task, compared to developing something from scratch.
B. How difficult is the design to build? In a developed country like the USA or Japan, labor costs are very high. On top of that, finding extremely skilled craftsmen is quite difficult. Even if the same parts are used, a design which pushes the technical capabilities of your production staff will require a very different time and monetary budget from something that is easy to build (which includes most DIY designs that I have seen).
regards,
jonathan carr
jonathanI'm afraid the answers to your rhetorical questions(if I undestand you right) does not favor the efforts of 47 labs. Their design couldn't deviate much from the chip manufaturers application notes and there is no indication this company knows anything about how to design a discrete amplifier. To your second question the gaincard is simplistic to manufacture. What did I miss?
steve
Excuse me, steve b., but you are not registered as hence do not have your system listed.What is your experience with the Gaincard? Have you looked inside one, or at a schematic?
And what equipment do YOU favor?
Please also, so we can evaluate the usefulness of your post, let us know about your experience in designing and manufacturing an amplifier, as I am sure you are a very experienced engineer, perhaps with a top high-end brand, to be able to pass judgement so absolutely on the designer of 47 Labs.
Excuse me, steve b., but you are not registered as hence do not have your system listed.
What is your experience with the Gaincard? Have you looked inside one, or at a schematic?No I haven't looked inside. As jcarr stated they can be using some trick circuit design in the gaincard, maybe they are. Would it make you feel better if they did? Norh has shown you can make a good amp using these 9 or so parts going by the book. What's wrong with that?
And what equipment do YOU favor?
If you really want to know, I collect low power tube amps(guitar and stereo), and have been using my modified BK ex-140 for 15 years. At work it's Bryston.
Please also, so we can evaluate the usefulness of your post, let us know about your experience in designing and manufacturing an amplifier, as I am sure you are a very experienced engineer, perhaps with a top high-end brand, to be able to pass judgement so absolutely on the designer of 47 Labs.
I am not passing any judgement here, sorry if you think I am. I have been designing professional audio equipment for quite some time now, so yes I know about designing and manufacturing audio equipment. The previous poster jonathan speculated the design cycle 47 labs may have taken and I speculated they didn't follow that path. You can actually hear from the designer himself about the path he took with this link.
steve
Steve,> Their design couldn't deviate much from the chip manufaturers application notes. <
I cannot speak for 47 Labs, but we have done a feed-forward floating design with split power supplies that deviated quite a bit from the application notes (although I did go to the manufacturer to find out what the schematic really was, not the simplified version published in the data sheets and application notes). Admittedly, the final version of the power amp did become all discrete, but using monolithic chips simply made more sense for the proof-of-concept prototypes.
It just depends on the performance level that you are looking for, to what extent you are willing to go in order to get that performance, and how creative and imaginative that you want to be.
And of course, how much you are willing to tell people about what you have done :-).
> There is no indication this company knows anything about how to design a discrete amplifier. <
Perhaps you are right. Nonetheless, a design can be quite creative even without going discrete.
> To your second question the gaincard is simplistic to manufacture. <
If the Gaincard is really built entirely point-to-point using SMD components (like 805s and 1206s) and no circuit board, believe me, your assembly people won't like you ;-).
regards,
jonathan carr
.
jusbe
Share and save the World.
..."Only the simplest can accomodate the most profit"What I can't reconcile is how a company that stresses simplicity as the pathway to sonic nirvanna can make a transport (PiTracer) thats the most mechanically and electronically complex on the planet.
joe
What I can't reconcile is how a company that stresses simplicity as the pathway to sonic nirvanna can make a transport (PiTracer) thats the most mechanically and electronically complex on the planet.What's so hard to reconcile? They say "only the simplest can accommodate the most complex." What could be much simpler than a CD? Gotta accommodate it with something much more complex. Makes perfect sense to me. :)
se
The gain card hook is small size.
The PiTracer can't use this hook, since there are a ton of shrink wrap mirco CD players hanging on the SuperMarket rack, right next to the slippers.
...they already used up the quota of cute names for small and impractically executed trasports when they made the Flatfish.joe
AH this is what I was looking for.... a negative value opinion.
I have not heard the amp so I can't comment on the sound, but clearly the value side has moved you to comment. This is good.Thanks,
Rob
PS: ALthough I have not used their cables, I have exprimented with the simple thin-wire approach to cabling in my system with very good results.
hey Rob,i've played with the high gauge wire as well. in my system it did do several things right...most of it didn't work out to the chagrin of my girlfriend.
the gaincard opamp will probably oscillate if you use cables with high capacitance....see why they like their cables so much?
otoh, high gauge cabling has worked out quite well for me on the IC front. if you haven't already, give it a try.
regards,
chiggy
Chiggy,I am using 30 ga magnet wire (signal/return run parallel laced through jutte flat braid) as my interconnect. Bettered nearly everything I had on hand.
I played with wire from 18 through 26 ga as speaker wire. Found 22 and 24 ga to sound very good when run in parallel....I have not decided whether to make this permanent though.....My AP Oval 12s are still very good in their own right.
ALso, I have recently played with removing the RCA connector from the equation, ala' the 47 labs funky plug. I used a rubber coated paper clip bent to a U-shape to provide the tension in socket, with the 30 ga wire wrapped around a portion to ensure good contact. I then used a very small buber-band to hold the return wire to the outside collar of the socket (and tape on some since I broke more rubber-bands than I used).
Did not hear an ounce of difference over the cables fitted with the cheap RS RCA's...nothing. Oh well...it was fun in an obsesive-compulsive sort of way.Thanks,
Rob
and I wouldn't use the Gaincard if it was free.
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