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In Reply to: Right back atcha... posted by Aurelio S. on June 06, 2001 at 15:24:45:
>> It takes time to find and scour the Salvation Armies, Goodwill Centers and out-of-the-ordinary record shops that carry vinyl - not to mention the time it takes to rifle through thousands of LPs to find a gem in mint condition for $4. <<All depends on where you live. I never shop at Salvation Army, Good Will, garage sales or swap meets. 90% of the vinyl I buy, and I buy quite a bit of it, is new and sealed. When I do choose to buy used LP's, I visit a couple of stores which could hardly be called "out-of-the-ordinary" [whatever that means], where most of the records are in superb condition, are filed for easy browsing, and are fairly priced.
>> In summary, an LP playback system requires a lot of time: Time to set it up correctly... <<
Depends on what you choose as your rig. Maybe you could tell the group about the personal experience you have living with high quality LP playback gear?
>> ...time to maintain it (make sure things don't fall out of "alignment"... <<
Again, this *greatly* depends on the gear you choose.
>> "...time to keep the software clean and free of noise inducing particles... <<
Yea, I know how those 8 seconds it takes to brush off a record can add up.
>> ...and time to find the software. <<
Sucks going record shopping, doesn't it? ;-)
>> Sheesh! <<
Sheesh is right. Perhaps you should take a little more time to become aquatinted with the topic you're trying to discuss.
Best Wishes,
Felix
Follow Ups:
> > Perhaps you should take a little more time to become aquatinted with the topic you're trying to discuss. < <Everything I stated comes from personal experience and personal preference. It is not fact, and could very well be different for others. I relayed MY experience. And FYI, no, I don't want to spend 8 seconds cleaning each record, nor do I want to get up after 20 minutes to flip sides. With my CL-10, I can listen to approximately 300+ minutes of music uninterrupted. I like that very much. And truth be told, I do hate shopping.
Perhaps you should try a novel approach to ending your posts rather than simply using the tiresome, old statement of trying to discredit me.
AS
> > Everything I stated comes from personal experience and personal preference. < <"I used to own an LP playback system but fell to the "perfect sound forever" dupe. I transferred all my LPs to tape and ditched my Thorens."
" Would an LP playback system sound better? dunno - never tried it at home... < <
> > I relayed MY experience. < <
Clearly, you have no experience with modern, quality analog gear.
> > And truth be told, I do hate [record] shopping.
"Music is my passion, not high-end audio"
With this in mind, can you explain how your love of music allows you to forego enjoying the thousands upon thousands of recordings that'll never be available on CD in lieu of convenience? TIA
> > Perhaps you should try a novel approach to ending your posts rather than simply using the tiresome, old statement of trying to discredit me. < <
As you can see, I really don't need to say much to discredit your position; I can just quote your own words. BTW, the list of accessories you included in your response to Joe is proof positive that you have no idea of what you speak.
$210 for their least expensive record cleaning machine
- Not necessary
$12 for 1 oz of record cleaning solution
- Not necessary
$15 for surface cleaning brush
- I'd recommend spending an extra fin on a Hunt
$100 average cost of a record clamp
- Why are you assuming that every 'table benefits from a clamp?
$25 for stylus cleaner
- that's about right.
$15 for the cheap Shure stylus force gauge
- a good investment
$35 for the cheap Protrac cartridge alignment tool
- Personally, I prefer a $20 mirrored protractor, but any quality piece will do the job. FYI, the price of a protractor has nothing to do with its effectiveness.
$24 for 4 vibrapods (assuming you have a base to put the 'table on)
- Why are you assuming that every 'table will benefit from such an arrangement?
> > That comes to $411 for "a few accessories" and I'm probably forgetting a few! < <
My list, using the prices you quoted, comes to $90. If a dealer does the cartridge install, the cost is reduced to $40 for a stylus cleaner and a record brush. Joe's already handled this concern, and explained in great detain why you're mistaken in your naive assumptions, but somehow it seems that nothing's gotten through.
Best Wishes,
Felix
> > Clearly, you have no experience with modern, quality analog gear. < <A little less than three years ago, I seriously looked into an analog rig and auditioned the full line of VPI and BASIS tables, along with some Sotas & Regas with quite a few different arms and cartridges. If 3 years outdates my comments, then I stand corrected. Somehow though, I doubt that in those 3 years, analog has advanced so much that it renders my opinions obsolete. I’d say that if most companies are dumping their money into anything, it’s R&D of digital technology.
Furthermore, regarding my statements: "I used to own an LP playback system but fell to the "perfect sound forever" dupe. I transferred all my LPs to tape and ditched my Thorens."
This was true and took place in 1985.
Regarding my statements: “Would an LP playback system sound better? dunno - never tried it at home... "
This is also true - I simply failed to add that I have never tried an LP playback system in my CURRENT home system I've had '96. Believe what you want, but my statements do not contradict each other.
> > "Music is my passion, not high-end audio" With this in mind, can you explain how your love of music allows you to forego enjoying the thousands upon thousands of recordings that'll never be available on CD in lieu of convenience? < <
Simple: At this point of my life, I place convenience and efficient use of time above music and high-end audio. I didn't see a need to state that in my Inmate System comment that you pulled out of your bag of tricks. The comment simply points out that I am not one who rotates tons of gear through my system like a typical audiophile: I find what I need and stick with it as long as it's listenable.
> > As you can see, I really don't need to say much to discredit your position; I can just quote your own words. < <
No, I can not see where I discredit myself. What I do see instead is you taking what I say out of context and then trying like heck to catch me in a contradiction or a misstatement; when in fact, as long as I'm offering up my opinion, which is what I've been doing, then I can always claim to be right - regardless of what you throw at me.
> > BTW, the list of accessories you included in your response to Joe is proof positive that you have no idea of what you speak. Joe's already handled this concern, and explained in great detail why you're mistaken in your naive assumptions, but somehow it seems that nothing's gotten through. < <
Yes, he explained in great detail that all I need to do instead of buying accessories is to engage in a little "blowing" and "prodding" to set up my $2k or $3k analog system. Yes, that's very sound advice.
Regards,
Aurelio
> > A little less than three years ago, I seriously looked into an analog rig and auditioned the full line of VPI and BASIS tables, along with some Sotas & Regas with quite a few different arms and cartridges. < <So what? How does being in the same room with a few turntables allow you to discuss their long-term performance constraints? I'd really like to hear an answer to this one.
> > This was true and took place in 1985. < <
Fine, you have not lived with a turntable since 1985, yet saw no problem with exclaiming dissatisfaction driven by lifestyle concerns. Obviously, in order for those comments to have relevance, you'd have to have some experience living with a modern rig, and in your own words that has not taken place in the last 16 years. Can you explain why anyone should not look at your postings as mindless drivel?
> > Believe what you want, but my statements do not contradict each other. < <
As I said before, your statements do a fine job of speaking for themselves.
> > At this point of my life, I place convenience and efficient use of time above music and high-end audio. < <
Why didn't you just say so to begin with? It could have saved everyone a lot of time.
> > I didn't see a need to state that in my Inmate System comment that you pulled out of your bag of tricks. < <
You may be surprised to find out that my bag of tricks manifests itself by clicking on the "i" link on top of your post; although, I do find it curious to see you get upset over something that *you* wrote and intended for public viewing. You may want to consider being more straight forward in your comments, and perhaps you won't feel the need to have to modify your claims and to backpedal with righteous indignation at a moment's notice.
> > The comment simply points out that I am not one who rotates tons of gear through my system like a typical audiophile: < <
Can you provide some statistical data which supports you new claims relating to the "typical audiophile?" TIA
> > No, I can not see where I discredit myself. < <
Yea, I know... ;-)
> > What I do see instead is you taking what I say out of context... < <
[...if I only had a nickel for every time...]
Clearly, nothing was taken out of context as there was nothing qualifying the statements I quoted verbatim. If you feel otherwise, please illustrate it for the group instead of crying about being confronted with your own words.
> > ...as long as I'm offering up my opinion, which is what I've been doing, then I can always claim to be right - regardless of what you throw at me. < <
What word in the English language do you think best describes an individual who argues vehemently, citing factors which cannot possibly be in his realm of personal experience and expertise, making laughably silly claims, only to buttress them with, "It's just my opinion?"
> > Yes, he explained in great detail that all I need to do instead of buying accessories... < <
Errr...you posted a list of turntable accessories which you claimed were necessary for optimum performance, that was grossly incorrect. Joe commented in detail on your first attempt at clairvoyance, but you ignored it only to return with the same, insipid lines. In fact, you made assumptions which can only be described as amazingly ignorant, showcasing your unyielding unfamiliarity with modern analog hardware. Given you total lack of experience living with good analog gear, and the arguments which followed, can you explain why your posts should not be looked at as imbecilic tripe?
> > ...all I need to do instead of buying accessories is to engage in a little "blowing" and "prodding" to set up my $2k or $3k analog system. Yes, that's very sound advice. < <
Given you accusations of taking statements out of context, can you shed some light on how your disingenuous spin of Joe's comments doesn't paint you as a raging hypocrite?
Best Wishes,
Felix
> > How does being in the same room with a few turntables allow you to discuss their long-term performance constraints? I'd really like to hear an answer to this one. < <Again you choose to ignore key words, "seriously looked into", meaning that I read up on the pros/cons of owning a "modern rig", plus I gathered feedback from local "modern rig" owners/lovers and "modern rig" dealers. Based on their answers (which BTW strongly encouraged buying a record cleaning machine to help extract that all-vital low-level detail), I made the decision that owning a "modern rig" would place a long-term constraint on my lifestyle.
> > Fine, you have not lived with a turntable since 1985, yet saw no problem with exclaiming dissatisfaction driven by lifestyle concerns. < <
No, I saw no problem with offering up my opinion.
> > Obviously, in order for those comments to have relevance, you'd have to have some experience living with a modern rig < <
You think so, huh? So you're saying that no one can conclude (or offer opinions on) how something could affect their lives based on research, education and personal preference, eh? They have to have experience living with a modern rig, eh? Are you sure you're not a dealer?
> > Can you explain why anyone should not look at your postings as mindless drivel? < <
I really could care less if everyone looks at my postings as mindless drivel. It would be nice if I gave someone "food for thought" with my opinions, but I can still sleep just fine at night if it's the former. Life is too short to focus on the (and be) negative. We can all laugh a little more, and respect others a little more. Take a good hard look in the mirror, Felix. As long as the moderators and owners of this board don't have a problem with me, then I will continue posting, as time allows. Funny, you seem to be the only one taking this thread so personally.
> > Why didn't you just say so to begin with? It could have saved everyone a lot of time. < <
From my reply to SR 5 posts and 2 days ago: "It's also about time, man. It takes time to find and scour the Salvation Armies, Goodwill Centers and out-of-the-ordinary record shops that carry vinyl - not to mention the time it takes to rifle through thousands of LPs to find a gem in mint condition for $4... Time I much rather spend dancing to music with my 2 year old"
> > You may be surprised to find out that my bag of tricks manifests itself by clicking on the "i" link on top of your post < <My point was that I do find it curious to see you reach beyond the thread for ammunition.
> > I do find it curious to see you get upset < <
You'd like to believe that I'm getting upset, wouldn't you, Felix? It was an observation.
> > You may want to consider being more straight forward in your comments, and perhaps you won't feel the need to have to modify your claims and to backpedal with righteous indignation at a moment's notice. < <I've been nothing but straight forward in my comments about owning a modern rig. I think that's what's bothering you the most.
> > Can you provide some statistical data which supports your new claims relating to the "typical audiophile?" < <
I don't have to - it's common knowledge. Where've you been?
> > Clearly, nothing was taken out of context as there was nothing qualifying the statements I quoted verbatim. If you feel otherwise, please illustrate it for the group instead of crying about being confronted with your own words. < <
From The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th Ed.), the definition of 'context': 1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning. 2. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.
Do you want me to define "take" and "out", for you, also?
> > What word in the English language do you think best describes an individual who argues vehemently, citing factors which cannot possibly be in his realm of personal experience and expertise, making laughably silly claims, only to buttress them with, "It's just my opinion?" < <
What do you call this statement you just made? A fact? I can say exactly the same thing about your comments.
From The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th Ed.), the definition of 'opinion': 1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.
And you're not arguing vehemently? Who began this discussion between the two of us?
> > Errr...you posted a list of turntable accessories which you claimed were necessary for optimum performance, that was grossly incorrect. < <
Errr... your opinion.
> > Joe commented in detail on your first attempt at clairvoyance, but you ignored it only to return with the same, insipid lines. In fact, you made assumptions which can only be described as amazingly ignorant, showcasing your unyielding unfamiliarity with modern analog hardware. < <
I've really hit a nerve, haven't I? Sounds to me like you're afraid to face the truth about the future of analog...the possibility of digital surpassing it...and the inconvenience of analog.
> > Given your total lack of experience living with good analog gear, and the arguments which followed, can you explain why your posts should not be looked at as imbecilic tripe? < <
Nope. As I alluded to earlier, I can sleep just fine at night if you think my posts are imbecillic tripe. Sounds like they're causing you many restless nights, though. ;-)
> > Given your accusations of taking statements out of context, can you shed some light on how your disingenuous spin of Joe's comments doesn't paint you as a raging hypocrite? < <
Fine, in an effort not to come off as a "raging hypocrite", I'll declare that all of Joe's advice, in my opinion, was not sound or sensible - but he is certainly entitled to his opinion, and I respect that.
Good night, Felix. I've expended enough negative energy on your hopeless attitude.
I'm through with this thread.
AS
> > Again you choose to ignore key words, "seriously looked into", meaning that I read up on the pros/cons of owning a "modern rig", plus I gathered feedback from local "modern rig" owners/lovers and "modern rig" dealers. < <Big Woop! How does this allow you to comment on long-term maintenance issues as you did? You're supposedly answering this same question, but alas that's not what's found in your reply.
> > Based on their answers (which BTW strongly encouraged buying a record cleaning machine to help extract that all-vital low-level detail), I made the decision that owning a "modern rig" would place a long-term constraint on my lifestyle. < <
Who cares? If you choose to gauge your musical satisfaction by consulting others, that's your business. My problem lies with the gross misstatement you've made in your rants, as I have illustrated ad nauseaum.
However, I'd like to explore something for a moment. You position revolves around convenience being more important than the music, which in turn is more important that hi-fi, correct? I can quote you verbatim if you like...
Seeing how you feel that you'd need a cleaning machine to extract the maximum amount of detail out of an LP - which I agree with - how does that not run totally contrary to the position you've been asserting? After all, the sound isn't as important as the music, so why did you choose to forego exploring a plethora of recordings on the basis of sonic concerns?
> > So you're saying that no one can conclude (or offer opinions on) how something could affect their lives based on research, education and personal preference, eh? < <
Your claim regrinding analog rigs needing constant adjustment is simply wrong, and you'd know that also if you actually had a turntable. That's the point you seem to be missing rather consistently.
> > I really could care less if everyone looks at my postings as mindless drivel. < <
...obviously.
> > We can all laugh a little more... < <
I don't know about you, but I've been laughing all along ;-)
> > I've been nothing but straight forward in my comments about owning a modern rig. I think that's what's bothering you the most. < <
So now you're a mindreader? If you must know, what bothers me the most are individuals who admit, after some prodding, that they have absolutely no experience with the topic in question and still assert their dogmatic views with seemingly unrivaled righteousness and zeal.
> > From my reply to SR 5 posts and 2 days ago... < <
Umm...I quoted that exact line in my first reply to you, and nowhere do you say that music and sound is less important to you than convenience, as you did when you tried to justify your position by modifying your own words which you intended for public viewing.
> > From The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th Ed.), the definition of 'context':... < <
How was the meaning of anything you wrote altered?
> > Do you want me to define "take" and "out", for you, also? < <
It would certainly be of help if you illustrated your claims in lieu of playing silly dictionary games. You claimed that your statements were taken out of context, yet there nothing to indicate they were qualified in a way that would change their meaning. Given the copious research you have done, I'd think it would be easy for you to prove your false claim, but obviously there's nothing there but another red herring.
> > What do you call this statement you just made? A fact? < <
Yes, I wrote:
"What word in the English language do you think best describes an individual who argues vehemently, citing factors which cannot possibly be in his realm of personal experience and expertise, making laughably silly claims, only to buttress them with, "It's just my opinion?""
Are you citing factors not in the realm of your personal experience and expertise?
Yes.
Are you making laughably silly claims?
Yes.
Have you buttressed them with anything other than "It's just my opinion?
No.
> > And you're not arguing vehemently? Who began this discussion between the two of us? < <
What does this have to do with you arguing a point for turntable needing constant, long-term maintenance and adjustments, when you have no knowledge whatsoever of these concerns?
> > My point was that I do find it curious to see you reach beyond the thread for ammunition. < <
Don't you find it odd referring to a description of yourself that *you* wrote in your Inmate Profile, something you obviously expected other to read, as "ammunition?" You see, my new, fine feathered friend, running and backpedaling away from your own words, while accusing others of manipulating your language just because you're unable to support you statements with anything even resembling logic and reason, is highly disingenuous.
> > Are you sure you're not a dealer? < <Yea, you've found me out, Sherlock.
> > As long as the moderators and owners of this board don't have a problem with me, then I will continue posting, as time allows. < <
What's with the strawman? Post as much as you like for all I care, just don't be upset when you're asked to support your foolish claims with something other than the inane "It's just my opinion."
> > Sounds to me like you're afraid to face the truth about the future of analog...the possibility of digital surpassing it... < <
Why are you trying to change the topic of this discussion?
> > I'll declare that all of Joe's advice, in my opinion, was not sound or sensible ... < <
How do you know, as you have no experience with turntables, at least not in the last 16 yrs? Yea, I know, it's just your opinion, one that has absolutely no bases in personal knowledge, experience, expertise, or understanding. Brilliant.
> > Good night, Felix. < <
Night time must come fast in Detroit, eh?
> > I'm through with this thread. < <
A shame, really.
Best Wishes,
Felix
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