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In Reply to: So go buy a turntable! posted by Gannet on June 05, 2001 at 20:34:21:
I've been having the same dilemma as Charlie_L during the last year.How much will it cost me to put together an analog rig that sounds equal to or better than say a Sony C333ES at $800MSRP, which I was considering? Truth be told, I don't think I could do an equal-sounding analog rig for $800.
Consider first the table...probably a few hundred dollars, say $500. Then the arm: Another couple hundred dollars. Add a decent cartridge like the Blue Point Special at about $200 and we're already at $900. Now, I have to think about isolation devices if I really want to get the most from my rig: Yes, many of these can be DIY, but at the very least, the base upon which it sits is probably best purchased, so add another $100 (at least). Now, we're at $1000. Now, we shift our attention to the Software: The least expensive record cleaning machine I've seen is sold by Audio Advisor at about $200. Finish it off with miscellaneous items like the tools you need to align the cartride, balance the 'arm and other items like zerostat, etc., we can add another $100.
So, I'm looking at about $1300 for a modest (very modest IMO) rig that I am expecting to equal or better the sound of the C333ES? I doubt it.
I'm not doubting that vinyl still sounds better than SACD, but the law of diminishing returns kicks in quickly when the two are compared. Unless I spend several thousand dollars on the analog rig, I just don't think I can equal a modest SCD player. If I can get 90% of the analog sound through a digital SCD front-end for a 1/3 to 1/2 the cost, it's not worth it to me to go analog.
If I am "misguided" please pray tell. This has been my own experience (not from hearsay or reading). I have actually listened and priced all this stuff out. I just can't justify the cost of the analog rig for the sound I desire.
AS
PS. Note that even though I consider pre-owned gear when looking to buy, an LP-playback system would not be something I'd consider buying used. There are just to many possibilities for something to go wrong because it's mostly mechanical moving parts as opposed to isolated electronic parts like in an amp. So, pre-owned is not an option.
Follow Ups:
Why NOT buy used?
I'm a mechanical idiot, I can design, modify and build my own amplifiers, but I'm not quite so comfortable around things mechanical.
But you want to know what REALLY scares me? Disposable Asian crap technology that is designed to be used a few years, has proprietary parts that get crushed in a Japanese or Malaysian dumpster after the (very brief) warranties on the original equipment expires (they don't want you to fix, they want you narrow-nosed DUMMIES to buy MORE of this disposable junk!), and basically have ZERO user-serviceable parts in them, anyways!
I've bought plenty of used Hi-Fi equipment, because the horrible bit is how random the technological developments are, and as far as regular CD goes, the technology basically DIED in all-in-one machines by about 1991/2. Outrageous? Maybe. But I have three machines, none newer, and I CAN'T FIND ANYTHING NEWER THAT SOUNDS BETTER! I am still awaiting my demo of SACD, but CD is such a god-awful pathetic imitation of analog (I love electrostatic speakers, and CD sounds so bad that it is UNLISTENABLE with every electrostat I've ever heard, yet the same electronics and speakers sound GLORIOUS with LP...what's the score here?) that I remain DEEPLY sceptical. I guess I'm just a Missouri country boy...
What goes wrong in an old turntable? You gotta put a couple of spots of oil in the platter bearing and on the motor spindle once a year? Change a belt every few years?
You have to bother to put it in a place where it won't bounce or feedback (it may seem weird, but the best place is the floor! I dare anyone here to try it! Beats any and every stand you can buy, at any price, every time!), You have to buy a few "accessories" for it? And what happens to those accessories, the pucks, the clamps, the spikes?
Do they suddenly pack up and go south, turning into petrified goat turds when the clock strikes midnight at the end of the 2-year warranty? Funny, people will complain about the limited lifespan & high-cost of a replacement needle, but think nothing of throwing their expensive CD player into the dumpster when it starts permanently mistracking because the laser wears out! And have any of us priced the cost of installing a new laser for our players, lately?
What goes wrong with an old turntable that you would be afraid to buy it? If the platter spins, the bearing is probably OK, right? If you hit the power switch, and the motor turns the platter, then its OK, right? Does the arm move? Set the tracking force and anti-skate to zero (with the stylus guard in place, please!), and blow gently or prod the arm gently and let it glide across the record playing area. And then up and down. Did it "stick" at any point? No? Then the bearings in the arm are primo! It did stick? A little bit? Hmmm, you've got a maybe there. Definitely? OK, either you're going to buy a new arm or you walk...
Try fixing a dead laser that easily!
So you have some adjustments. Overhang, azimuth, tracking force, antiskating. Maybe you have to adjust the tonearm height. Do you need a $100 special Swiny Test CD with $1000-5000 worth of lab equipment to do this? And the engineering knowledge to know what to do with this gear to make the adjustments? A service manual for every turntable? If you don't want to spring for a record-cleaning machine (OOOH! It's got a MOTOR in it! Complicated and unreliable, run and hide!), don't you have a dealer remotely near you that provides record cleaning services? So pay the man the 75 cents or whatever and get 'em cleaned! You don't have to spend $200+! How many records are you going to clean? Do you ever clean your CD's? Don't buy filthy records! And don't try "wet-cleaning" them with Rover's tongue, or that lovely bottle of Corona that you're holding in your left hand! You scratch a record, it makes a "click" every time it goes around. Scratch a CD bad enough, and you're LUCKY if it just makes a "click" every time it goes around, and it goes around alot faster, doesn't it?
Don't feel like forking out big bucks for cartridge alignment guages?
Give your local dealer some chump-change and let him do it for you! You think you'll need to do it every other day or something? Or even every week? Or even every YEAR? If you change the cartridge, the arm or the whole turntable, then you need it done! If you plan on changing cartridges, arms and turntables like you do undergarments, then MAYBE you need to have your own alignment tools...It would be NICE, but do you need this??? And again, once you got 'em, are they gonna wear out? Become any more obsolete than they (ha ha) are already??? I can think of worse investments. Like little edge-cutter gizmos from Germany to shave your digital discs to obsessive-compulsive perfect circumference....only what? $500? $600?
Buy a used table for $200, $300 or $400. A buddy of mine just bought a beautiful CJ Walker turntable, from a retail store! For $60!!! It needed some setup work and a cartridge, but it sounds BEAUTIFUL. If I heard a CD player that sounded that good for less than $2000 I'd BUY IT ON THE SPOT!!! A cartridge you should buy new. But not an arm or turntable. You don't need a degree in rocket science to figure out either how to operate a record player or how to fix what gets worn out or broken. YOU CAN SEE IT. IT'S ALL RIGHT THERE. If purchased from a reputable manufacturer, your turntable can last THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Try that with your Sony CD flayer! My turntables are both over 15 years old, and the only thing I've spent money for are new belts ($20, OOOOH!) and new cartridges every two or three years ($200, OOOOOH! That's a whopping $66 a year!!!).
CD technology is like transistor amps vs. tube ones. Low-maintenance, comparatively lousy sound and disposable VS. routine maintenance, comparitively superior sound and built to last a lifetime.
I've made my choice, and I listen to CD extensively. But vinyl it ain't, and I've gotten FAR more musical value for my dollars with LP than CD ever remotely has provided me with...CD is FALSE convenience, because there is nothing convenient about unsatisfying sound once you're used to what even a relatively cheap but well-though out analog rig can do for you...
You are all over the place, man. Get a hold of yourself! ;-)Gosh, where to begin?
> > they want you narrow-nosed DUMMIES to buy MORE of this disposable junk! < <
I've actually been told my nose is kind of on the flat side and that I'm pretty smart. ;-)
> > and as far as regular CD goes, the technology basically DIED in all-in-one machines by about 1991/2. < <
I humbly disagree. I own a $500 Rotel CDP from 1991. As recently as last year, I compared it to a $500 Rotel CDP that a friend of mine was auditioning and considering buying and it blew my old one away in the same system.
Furthermore, I think SACD and DVD came to fruition because of (or perhaps in spite of) redbook CDs, so I think the current technology owes much to the CDs of the late 80's/early 90's.
Remember Reagan's trickle down economics? Same idea with technology. Reaganomics didn't work because no one wanted to trickle any of their money downward - but with technology it works. Just ask any of the designers in this asylum if advancements in technology were built off existing technology.
> > I am still awaiting my demo of SACD < <
To which my original post "Not so fast..." was comparing vinyl, but hey, that's okay. I liked reading your post anyway! ;-)
> > I love electrostatic speakers, and CD sounds so bad that it is UNLISTENABLE with every electrostat I've ever heard, yet the same electronics and speakers sound GLORIOUS with LP < <
Well, I agree and disagree here. I own a set of SL3 ESLs and my CAL CL-10 is VERY listenable through them, so I disagree that CD sounds bad with every 'stat. Would an LP playback system sound better? dunno - never tried it at home but heard the SL3 with better electronics and LP at dealer before I bought mine, and yes, it sounded better than redbook CDs. But was it the LP or was it the $10,000 of associated equipment?
> > I guess I'm just a Missouri country boy... < <
I understand. I'm from West Virginia originally. My sister and cousins had all gone and gotten themselves knocked up, so I was forced to leave home and find myself a purty German gurl < < ;-)> > What goes wrong in an old turntable? You gotta put a couple of spots of oil in the platter bearing and on the motor spindle once a year? Change a belt every few years? < <
I wasn't necessarily thinking long-term after I bought it, rather how it was treated by the previous owner and what might happen to it during shipping.
> > You have to buy a few "accessories" for it? < <
Hmmm? Le'ts see how much "a few 'accessories'" will run me? The following came from Elusive Disc's website. I consider these essential at the time of purchase of an analog rig...
$210 for their least expensive record cleaning machine
$12 for 1 oz of record cleaning solution
$15 for surface cleaning brush
$100 average cost of a record clamp $25 for stylus cleaner
$15 for the cheap Shure stylus force guage
$35 for the cheap Protrac cartridge alignment tool
$24 for 4 vibrapods (assuming you have a base to put the 'table on)That comes to $411 for "a few accessories" and I'm probably forgetting a few! And we should mention that this is all going on the assumption that one's preamp has a phono stage! If, like mine, it does not, then you add another $500 (and that's being generous) for a phono stage. This is of course before we purchase the turntable, arm and cartridge.
> > Funny, people will complain about the limited lifespan & high-cost of a replacement needle, but think nothing of throwing their expensive CD player into the dumpster when it starts permanently mistracking because the laser wears out! And have any of us priced the cost of installing a new laser for our players, lately? < <
In the 18 years I've been involved in high-end audio, I've never known an audiphile whose digital source started mistracking permanently because the laser wears out. Perhaps you're referring to the "Asian crap" as you so elequontly called it. ;-)
> > Set the tracking force and anti-skate to zero (with the stylus guard in place, please!), and blow gently or prod the arm gently and let it glide across the record playing area. < <
I'm sorry, but if I just spent a couple grand on an analog rig, I'm not blowing or prodding anything. I'm buying the accessories I need to make sure it's done correctly.
> > It did stick? A little bit? Hmmm, you've got a maybe there. Definitely? OK, either you're going to buy a new arm or you walk... < <
You wouldn't have this dilemma if you bought new, right? OK, thanks.
> > Try fixing a dead laser that easily! < <
Again with the dead laser!
> > So you have some adjustments. Overhang, azimuth, tracking force, antiskating. Maybe you have to adjust the tonearm height. < <
Good God, I'm getting tired just reading about it! ;-)
> > Do you need a $100 special Swiny Test CD with $1000-5000 worth of lab equipment to do this? < <
No, but neither would I be relying on "blowing" and "prodding" something. As I said previously, some items I feel are essential.
> > If you don't want to spring for a record-cleaning machine (OOOH! It's got a MOTOR in it! Complicated and unreliable, run and hide!) < <
The machine I priced was manual. I roast my own coffee manually using a Whirly-Pop cranker, so I think I could handle the machine.
> > don't you have a dealer remotely near you that provides record cleaning services? So pay the man the 75 cents or whatever and get 'em cleaned! < <
75 cents? This isn't 1970, my friend. A few trips to the dealer and you've paid for the $200 cleaning machine. And by the way, like I have time to go to the dealer. What happens if I spill something on a record? I go to my dealer with just one LP? You know, you're making a strong case for why NOT to have an analog rig.
> > Don't buy filthy records! < <
So this probably rules out 99% of the $.50 - $5.00 record "bargains"!
> > And don't try "wet-cleaning" them with Rover's tongue, or that lovely bottle of Corona that you're holding in your left hand! < <
Waste a Corona to clean my record? Think again, my friend! ;-)
> > You scratch a record, it makes a "click" every time it goes around. Scratch a CD bad enough, and you're LUCKY if it just makes a "click" every time it goes around, and it goes around alot faster, doesn't it? < <
Now, I'm not a bithead (I know what you're thinkin';-) but isn't there such a thing called "oversampling" that can potentially "catch" a defect in a CD and correct it - whereby I would never even hear the scratch or mistrack? Sure there is - my old Rotel has it and it's played many scratched CDs just fine. Could any analog rig do that?
> > Don't feel like forking out big bucks for cartridge alignment guages? Give your local dealer some chump-change and let him do it for you! You think you'll need to do it every other day or something? Or even every week? Or even every YEAR? If you change the cartridge, the arm or the whole turntable, then you need it done! If you plan on changing cartridges, arms and turntables like you do undergarments, then MAYBE you need to have your own alignment tools... < <
Okay, I'll give you this one. Scratch the $35 for the alignment tool.
> > I can think of worse investments. Like little edge-cutter gizmos from Germany to shave your digital discs to obsessive-compulsive perfect circumference....only what? $500? $600? < <
EVERYTHING in high-end audio is ridiculously expensive - not just these gizmos. That's why it's "high end". ;-)
> > A buddy of mine just bought a beautiful CJ Walker turntable, from a retail store! For $60!!! It needed some setup work and a cartridge, but it sounds BEAUTIFUL. < <
But does it sound better than SACD? (remember my original post?)
> > A cartridge you should buy new. But not an arm or turntable. You don't need a degree in rocket science to figure out either how to operate a record player or how to fix what gets worn out or broken. YOU CAN SEE IT. IT'S ALL RIGHT THERE. If purchased from a reputable manufacturer, your turntable can last THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Try that with your Sony CD flayer!
So you're saying that an analog rig, with all its constantly moving mechanical parts, some rubbing together, can last the rest of my life - while a CDP with NO moving, rubbing parts other than selector knobs/switches will run out sooner? Funny, my cousin bought a Dual turntable and a Revox CDP at the same time in the late-80's. Used them both equally. Guess which wore out first? He still owns and uses the Revox (sounds like shit though because the technology was still in its infancy).
> > My turntables are both over 15 years old, and the only thing I've spent money for are new belts ($20, OOOOH!) and new cartridges every two or three years ($200, OOOOOH! That's a whopping $66 a year!!!). < <
But if you had a digital rig for 15 years, and assuming it never broke, you'd have NOTHING to replace because of wear and tear. Right?
> > CD is FALSE convenience, because there is nothing convenient about unsatisfying sound once you're used to what even a relatively cheap but well-though out analog rig can do for you... < <
Sorry, don't buy it. Yes, a relatively cheap analog rig will probably sound better than its comparable CDP. But when you start talking $2k as in my CAL CL-10, I think the gap narrows and you have to spend more on the analog rig to get it to sound better. False convenience? If your standards are that high that convenience is not a factor, then I applaud you. But to me - a very good CDP and ESPECIALLY SACD get me close enough, if not equal to analog, so the convenience of digital wins over.
Thanks for your post. I enjoyed it immensely.
Respectfully,
Aurelio S.
Aurelio:
When I said the technology "died" in 1991/2 I meant in CD players, not garbage toys made with the usual crummy Philips parts (Rotel, NAD, maybe even Arcam). And therefore I meant the "best" CD players you could buy, not the worst ones! I'm sure the newer Rotel sounds better. The old one is probably screwing up, meaning that the laser is heading south on you! Or it's just a typical Rat-Hell botched piece'o'junk (quality made in Taiwan, along with NAD) and the sound quality of any of them is pretty random. Maybe a new one is better, maybe not!
As for what made vinyl sound better with your M-L SL3's, the $10K worth of electronics or the vinyl, it was the vinyl...
As far as making electrostats sound listenable with CD, I guess your sensitivity to listening fatigue is another factor. I'm too young to die, but it's getting harder to rock'n'roll...
It's pretty difficult to "abuse" a turntable, although tonearms can get abused (installing cartridges without taking the arm off the turntable, assuming that it doesn't use a detachable headshell or have non-precision uni-pivot bearings like a Hadcock/Mayware or Naim arm) and of course stylii get bent out of shape all the time...
As for shipping, well, yeah, it COULD get damaged. So could a CD player...
As for the $411 for the "few accessories" that you'll need for the turntable, take away the silly record-cleaning machine and its fluid and you're well under $200. And those accessories are not consumables, you can sell them on if you ever decide that you don't want them, and if that happens, what would you end up losing? $100? $50? Heck, you might even end up MAKING some money!
If you've been in High-End Audio for 18 years and have never seen a CD player laser die, you are either extremely lucky or smart enough not to have kept any of the bio-degradable machinery long enough to see the inevitable happen...As for only happening to what I cheerfully refer to as "Asian Crap", what CD flayer isn't? There is some dutch crap, but other than that, EVERY CD FLAYER ever made has Asian parts in it, and most High-End machines just use the same cheap junk that Sony & Philips do, because that's the only source for it!
You think Wadia, Meridian or Levinson make their own lasers? Boy, you'd better think again! I've seen Denon CD players that break down annually, others that ram the laser into the discs when it gets weak because it can't focus properly anymore and make lovely radial scratches in them in the process, a couple of Technics players where when the laser wore out the cost of replacement far exceeded the value of the machine (and after only about 3 or 4 years of use!)...
I have a beautiful Dual CD120 player that a buddy of mine gave me, mint condition, a front-loader with a vertical clear disc door and the coolest loading mechanism you've ever seen. It still works, sort of...but it makes these magic-marker squeaks, mutes, chirps and generally sounds pretty bitey when it decides to play a disc, which it can never start at the beginning of anymore...ditto a little Radio Shack machine I've got that also works, but only if the discs aren't more than about 45 minutes in length! Otherwise it just plays selected excerpts, by happily skipping across the disc in "record" time...breathe on it and you can further accelerate the maniacal process. I also used to have a NAD 502, which burned out its display (turned out to be a cheap incandescent bulb soldered to a circuit-board, I was actually able to fix this nonsense myself) and then also got the skippies, again, "dead laser". What do you think makes these players skip? Invisible scratches? Never seen a player skip? You've got to knock a record player with an elbow or set it up dead-wrong to get it to do anything remotely as ill-mannered...
"I'm sorry, if I've just spent a couple of grand on an analog rig (Where are you getting these ridiculous numbers from? You could probably get something better than your CD player used for $150 with a brand new, half-decent phono cartridge!) I'm not blowing or prodding anything, I'm buying the accessories I need to make sure that it's done correctly".
And what would those be? A tonearm bearing friction guage? Sorry, there is no such thing! But have you spent the $5000 to make sure that your laser is optimally focussed in your CD player, taken an engineering course to learn how to do it, spent the $25-75 for the service manual to get the model specific instructions to do same, as well as buy the obligatory $100 Test Disc to optimize the "eye" pattern on your oscilloscope? How about adjusting the least significant bits on your DAC(s), to optimize low-level linearity? Assuming that your machine uses a good enough DAC that the manufacturer bothered to allow you to make these adjustments without having to modify the circuit board to install potentiometers and relevant circuitry to the appropriate DAC pins?
You think these pieces of junk leave the factories optimized? No! Of course not! You just plug the junkbox into the wall, hook up some RCA's and away you go! Hey, perfect sound forever man, as long as you have no idea what perfect sound is, you're a happy guy!
There are internal adjustments in CD players for tweaking the low-level linearity of the DAC's (I have a quad-DAC Yamaha, and it has adjustments for four of the LSB's on each DAC! That's SIXTEEN DAC adjustments!), for adjusting the focus of the laser (usually a couple), for adjusting the laser intensity...have I forgotten any here? The only difference is that you can set up a turntable, but only a laboratory can set up your CD player. But hey, if it works, you're happy, right? For guys with that attitude, they used to make turntables with fixed counter-weights and P-mount cartridges that plugged into tonearms with absolutely no adjustments. And full automatic operation. You still had to select the speed (bummer!), but I think even Bang & Olufsen made models where you didn't have to even do that( but they had those pesky tracking force adjustments, instead).
Maybe I am out of touch about what a dealer charges you to use his fluid on his machine (and his labour to do this!). But you make it sound like I was suggesting that they'd charge you 75 cents a COLLECTION, I did mean per record, doncha know...Then you ask what you'd do if you spilled something on only one record, like if not having this $210 Whirly-Pop record cleaning machine in your own house and having to take that one miserable record to a dealer with a machine to clean it would be the most horrible inconvenience in the world...Aurelio...Baby!
What would you do if you spilt something on a CD??? I know I throw 'em away, and I like to do that with ones I don't spill things on, either. Maybe you could clean your CD's with the Whirly-Pop machine too, would that convince you that it could be a worthwhile investment???
As another poster mentioned, $12.99 for CD's is OK, but you'd want to buy vinyl for a buck a (whirly) pop, so now you're going to tell us that you can't see how you'd justify the $210 for the record cleaning machine? Hey, save $12 a disc (and what about tax!), and Mr. Record Cleaning machine pays for himself in less than two dozen music purchases, even allowing for the cost of cleaning fluid (and you can make your own, I do and I don't pay no buck an ounce!) at retail.
But you're the lad who wants to drop a couple of G's on a record playing rig, so if you think that's what its about, why buy filthy old yard sale records when you could spend $5 a (whirly) pop and get clean ones that were actually treated with some respect by previous owners instead? I've bought literally THOUSANDS of nice, used records, and I doubt that even 1% of them really need cleaning. They all play fine, sound pretty quiet and all that!
Oh, another thing. Oversampling is about getting better sound (a desperate and wasted endevour as far as CD is concerned). It has nothing at all to do with error correction, and no doubt it contributes to errors of its own if not properly implemented. What you're thinking about is something called "interpolation", which is error correction. If the idea of scratches and (whirly) pops bugs the heck out of you, you could always look around for one of those 1970's "click & pop" suppressor accessories that were sold by companies like RG Dynamics and SAE. Of course, they screw up the sound, but that's nothing compared to what CD does to the sound, so you can implement digital-type solutions in the analog domain. I personally can hear the interpolation making increasingly bad guesses as my discs get older (try listening to a player go through a heavy thumb-print on a disc while wearing headphones and listening to a sustained note held by a female vocalist. Pretty funny.), so I'll take the clicks & pops instead, please. The cure here is definitely worse than the disease...
"So you are saying that an analog rig, with all its constantly moving mechanical parts, some rubbing together-can last the rest of my life, while a CDP, with NO moving, rubbing parts other than selector knobs/switches, will wear out sooner?"
You REALLY don't know how CD players work, do you?
A CD player has a platter, a platter motor precisely controlled by a DC servo fed from information it gets from a very complex microprocessor that monitors data input flow, the laser moves up/down and left/right to follow the very rapidly spinning disc (approximately 5-10 times faster than an LP spins) and try to follow a "groove" of spiral lands & pits embedded on the discs' surface that each occupy only 1/100th the space a groove does on an LP, with no mechanical guidance to lock it in place (the laser signal is read by a photo-detector, which is in itself segmented into fractions so that it can decipher how the laser is drifting off alignment and send an electrical signal back to the laser servo electronics to tell them how to adjust this!). The CD is CONSTANTLY changing speed, since the LINEAR velocity is what counts with this crapnology, not the far-simpler rotational velocity of the record player. Variations in exact speed are supposedly not important, as long as the microprocessor's buffer is neither under (fart, burp, mute!) or over (same) fed with data. Oh, and laser's wear out, the mechanical parts that guide it are prone to wear and gumming up, and deterioration in the electronic parts in the servo (like cheap electrolytic capacitors, of which you'll find dozens if not hundreds in the whole machine) add to the fun, along with the CD spindle motor developing play and wearing out and responding less well to the servo signals with age. And then there is the loading mechanisms, which screw up more often than anything else. One of my Denon's occasionally needs a helping hand to shut all the way (and won't play unless tapped with a friendly middle finger), and one of my Yamaha's won't open its drawer at all unless you let the player "warm up" for 10 to 15 minutes before hitting the "drawer open" button anywhere from two to ten times...I've had that machine open, no belts are slipping and nothing is gummed up. The loading motor is getting tired, ditto the one in the Denon...
CD players are over-complicated electronic "toys", and to attempt to repair old ones is like taking Old Yeller to the Vet for a heart transplant. Maybe you can keep him going another six months or a year, but he's on his way out, and nothing is going to stop the process.
What "rubs" in a turntable? The belt doesn't "wear out", it usually dries up! When that happens, it loses its resiliency and stretches and then starts slipping. $20 and life is wonderful again. Turntables have a motor, the better ones use AC jobs that have maybe a resistor & one capacitor attached to them. After 10 or 20 years, the motor may start to get noisy and act like it's going to die soon. So you spend $75-125? and get a new one. See you again in 20 years! If the turntable is a cheaper job with a direct-dive motor or a DC servo, then things are a little more complicated. But DC servo motors usually cost less than $50 and were once plentiful, and the electronics that control them are quite reliable and relatively simple to troubleshoot for any decent tech. No custom microprocessors to control them, so no worry about getting the parts to do that!
As for your Dual turntable Vs. ReVox CDP comparison, maybe the problem is Dual, not the technology. Dual used DC servo motors in their later turntables, and my Dual CDP is dead as well! The ReVox sounds like crap not because it's an early example of the technology, it sounds like crap because it's a ReVox. All ReVox solid-scrape stuff sounds like crap! Ever listen to an A77, B77 or A700? I can assure you, I've had many an open-reel machine, and transistor ReVox is firmly at the bottom of that barrel.
If a digital rig lasted 15 years, and nothing "broke", it would still not be the more economical option to the turntable. It is a total disaster waiting to happen, not a simple old soldier in need of the odd replacement part. Once the CDP gets old enough, the whole rig is GARBAGE. You can't just easily swap the laser out of it, or remove the motor/spindle/servo assembly and throw it into some other player. This is all brand and model specific stuff, you can't just take a screwdriver to it, and good luck getting any support with it! Compare that to getting support for a Rega, Linn, Thorens, J.A. Michell or VPI. As far as comparing performance in the 2K range, I must totally disagree with where you are going with the analogy. The more you spend on digital, the LESS it improves relative to the cheaper models. The opposite is true with a turntable! Sure, there gets a point with them where more is merely just to get increased decadence, but by that time you'd be well north of $15K, and the difference between a $15K digital rig and a $2K one is far smaller than it is with turntables!
So c'mon! Put up yer dukes!
Cheers,
-Joe R.
> > So c'mon! Put up yer dukes! < <No, I'm not going to put up my dukes, Joe. I've expended way more energy than is necessary on this thread (not just you), but I enjoyed reading your post (seriously). It was quite thought provoking (and humorous - I liked the cleaning my vinyl in my Whirley Pop comment :)
Suffice it to say that I must have "bronze ears" or perhaps "silver ears" (as opposed to "golden ears") because my $2k digital rig sounds very smooth and not at all fatiguing to me. I can listen to it now with a bad amp in the chain. I think the system will sound even better once I switch to a powerful tube amp. In addition, perhaps I have indeed been around lasers that degraded but I've not been able to tell (even my old Rotel, which was hailed as sounding better than CDPs twice/thrice its price, still sounds good to me).
Furthermore, the SACD players I've listened to in dealer shops this past year sound even more refined and smooth than my CAL - not unlike analog. I've listened to analog rigs that cost less (in some cases 75% less) than my CAL, but I did not hear the resolution from these tables that I hear from my CAL. So, I must humbly disagree with you that a $150 analog rig will sound better than my CAL.
The analog rigs I auditioned a few years ago DID eventually get better than my CAL - especially in resolution and smoothness - but only when we got into the higher end VPI and Basis models, which I could not afford. For a moment though, I did consider a VPI HW-19 Jr. So, with the dealer's help, we priced out everything I would need: 'Table, arm and cartridge (can't remember models as its been awhile); along with the accessories I listed in my previous post. It was the dealer's advice to purchase a manual record cleaning machine (which he did not sell) after I told him I would probably purchase most of my vinyl second hand. When all was said and done, the damage was close to $2k. But then, I realized (duh!) that I had no phono stage. I did not want to buy a mediocre one, so I started thinking it was probably going to cost me closer to $3k for a setup that I still did not believe had equaled my CAL in sound - it came close, but not equal or better. At least not to my ears.
A few months after my near assimilation into the vinyl collective, I found out my wife was pregnant, so that cinched it for me. I did not want to have a delicate audio component like a turntable in my system where it would be accessable to a small child who could easily break it (you should see what she does with my knobs and CDs!). Not to mention, I knew I wouldn't have the time to go looking for vinyl.
Now, with SACD coming so close to analog (again, to my ears), I doubt that I will consider analog, again. I value convenience. I think it's only a matter of time before SACD, or whatever technology comes after it, makes the whole digital/analog debate a moot point. And with the convenience that digital offers, I want to be positioned to take full advantage of it.
I'm not sure if I addressed your post, but all of the posts I've made to this thread are beginning to run together, so I apologize.
Respectfully submitted,
Aurelio S.
> > I did consider a VPI HW-19 Jr. So, with the dealer's help, we priced out everything I would need: 'Table, arm and cartridge (can't remember models as its been awhile); along with the accessories I listed in my previous post. < <[Ahem!]
VPI 'tables are already equipped with a reflex record clamping system, which begs the question of why you felt you had to spend an extra $100 on one, as you indicated on your list of accessories and tweaks which you felt were necessary? I'll leave the Vibrapods, etc alone for the moment...
> > Furthermore, the SACD players I've listened to in dealer shops this past year sound even more refined and smooth than my CAL - not unlike analog. < <
Can you please explain how you can compare a CDP you have at home to another player you heard in a dealer's system, and then compare the whole shebang to an analog rig which you heard in yet another dealer's system some three years ago - discounting *numerous* variables - and arrive at a conclusive statement about their respective sonic constraints? TIA
> > > > I did not want to have a delicate audio component like a turntable in my system where it would be accessable to a small child who could easily break it (you should see what she does with my knobs and CDs!). Not to mention, I knew I wouldn't have the time to go looking for vinyl. < <
I have a daughter about the same age as yours, Aurelio, and she's been taught to respect the hi-fi since day one. She *never* touches any of the gear or the records, but sure likes to dance around at the drop of a hat.
Best Wishes,
Felix
My dad's got a Sony CDP-302 cd player made in April 1985, the thing has no problems whatsoever, and never has. I'll say nothing about sound quality, however :)Just thought I'd share that.
--jeff
> > I guess I'm just a Missouri country boy...Just last week you were Canadian, Joe. What gives? Did our last presidential election convince you to emmigrate from the provinces?
.
seeing the forest for the trees. The forest of software,and the price of it. Who cares if you spend $1500 for an analogue rig instead of $800 for that new CD player. You get access to a mountain of software for $4,$3,$2,$1,$ .50. Instead of paying $12.99 for everything.ITS ABOUT THE SOFTWARE MAN
But if you live in Los Angeles forget what I just said. I don't need another body competeing with me for records. Christ they might raise the price to $1.05
Steve
> > Who cares if you spend $1500 for an analogue rig instead of $800 for that new CD player < <Perhaps I didn't make my point clear enough. Even at $1500, one would be hard-pressed to equal the digital rig (remember, that $1500 includes about $500 or more of items needed that DON'T go toward the 'table, 'arm and cartridge; so you're really looking at about $1000 that you've actually spent on the analog rig).
> > IT'S ABOUT THE SOFTWARE MAN < <To quote your own words: "seeing the forest for the trees". It's also about time, man. It takes time to find and scour the Salvation Armies, Goodwill Centers and out-of-the-ordinary record shops that carry vinyl - not to mention the time it takes to rifle through thousands of LPs to find a gem in mint condition for $4.
Time I much rather spend dancing to music with my 2 year old (was that a low-blow to bring a child into the rebuttal? ;-).
If I don't want to do the legwork for the cheap vinyl and instead shop from the luxury of my Lazy-Boy as I do now with CDs, then I'm stuck paying just as much for an LP as a CD from places like Acoustic Sounds and Music Direct, and even e-Bay, etc.
In summary, an LP playback system requires a lot of time: Time to set it up correctly...time to maintain it (make sure things don't fall out of "alignment"...time to keep the software clean and free of noise inducing particles...and time to find the software. Sheesh! After all that, I'm too tired to even freakin' listen to the darn record. ;-) IMHO, time is precious, and I personally don't want to spend it driving all over creation to find a $.50 vinyl LP.
Now, if I was still single with the same dual income? Then, I'd have me a nice LP rig with lots of time to devote to it. ;-)
'Course, there'd be other problems that come with being alone ;-(
Respectfully,
AS
Actually I've rethought this and no matter where you live ignore what I said. You know an incredible amount about analogue for a guy with a CD player. I think you're just right where you belong.
Pop in a shiney disc for meSteve
> > You know an incredible amount about analogue for a guy with a CD player. < <Ah, yes. I was waiting for that one. It shows up so often on this board: The judgement of what you know and how much you know is based on what you own. 'Scuse me while I throw up.
FYI, I used to own an LP playback system but fell to the "perfect sound forever" dupe. I transferred all my LPs to tape and ditched my Thorens. But, in the last few years before SACD, I had considered going back to analog so, yes, I did some homework.
Furthermore, my original post titled "Not so fast..." compared SACD to vinyl - not CD to vinyl. I readily admit that ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, vinyl sounds significantly better than redbook CDs. The only thing that redbook CDs have over vinyl is their convenience - which is why I still listen to CDs - not vinyl; and probably the reason why vinyl died and CDs fostered. Joe Six-pack likes his convenience.
But as far as SACD is concerned, the gap is much narrower, if not closed, based on my experience in listening to SACD in the last year. My original point was that, if SACD is here to stay, it is going to be very hard to beat considering it gives you 90-100% of analog sound PLUS the convenience of CD.
respectfully,
ASPS. Don't worry. I'm not in L.A. where I'm sure you could drive for miles upon miles and find $.50 vinyl LPs along the way. Enjoy the drive! I will, meanwhile, be sitting back listening to that shiney disc.
nt
> > It takes time to find and scour the Salvation Armies, Goodwill Centers and out-of-the-ordinary record shops that carry vinyl - not to mention the time it takes to rifle through thousands of LPs to find a gem in mint condition for $4. < <All depends on where you live. I never shop at Salvation Army, Good Will, garage sales or swap meets. 90% of the vinyl I buy, and I buy quite a bit of it, is new and sealed. When I do choose to buy used LP's, I visit a couple of stores which could hardly be called "out-of-the-ordinary" [whatever that means], where most of the records are in superb condition, are filed for easy browsing, and are fairly priced.
> > In summary, an LP playback system requires a lot of time: Time to set it up correctly... < <
Depends on what you choose as your rig. Maybe you could tell the group about the personal experience you have living with high quality LP playback gear?
> > ...time to maintain it (make sure things don't fall out of "alignment"... < <
Again, this *greatly* depends on the gear you choose.
> > "...time to keep the software clean and free of noise inducing particles... < <
Yea, I know how those 8 seconds it takes to brush off a record can add up.
> > ...and time to find the software. < <
Sucks going record shopping, doesn't it? ;-)
> > Sheesh! < <
Sheesh is right. Perhaps you should take a little more time to become aquatinted with the topic you're trying to discuss.
Best Wishes,
Felix
> > Perhaps you should take a little more time to become aquatinted with the topic you're trying to discuss. < <Everything I stated comes from personal experience and personal preference. It is not fact, and could very well be different for others. I relayed MY experience. And FYI, no, I don't want to spend 8 seconds cleaning each record, nor do I want to get up after 20 minutes to flip sides. With my CL-10, I can listen to approximately 300+ minutes of music uninterrupted. I like that very much. And truth be told, I do hate shopping.
Perhaps you should try a novel approach to ending your posts rather than simply using the tiresome, old statement of trying to discredit me.
AS
> > Everything I stated comes from personal experience and personal preference. < <"I used to own an LP playback system but fell to the "perfect sound forever" dupe. I transferred all my LPs to tape and ditched my Thorens."
" Would an LP playback system sound better? dunno - never tried it at home... < <
> > I relayed MY experience. < <
Clearly, you have no experience with modern, quality analog gear.
> > And truth be told, I do hate [record] shopping.
"Music is my passion, not high-end audio"
With this in mind, can you explain how your love of music allows you to forego enjoying the thousands upon thousands of recordings that'll never be available on CD in lieu of convenience? TIA
> > Perhaps you should try a novel approach to ending your posts rather than simply using the tiresome, old statement of trying to discredit me. < <
As you can see, I really don't need to say much to discredit your position; I can just quote your own words. BTW, the list of accessories you included in your response to Joe is proof positive that you have no idea of what you speak.
$210 for their least expensive record cleaning machine
- Not necessary
$12 for 1 oz of record cleaning solution
- Not necessary
$15 for surface cleaning brush
- I'd recommend spending an extra fin on a Hunt
$100 average cost of a record clamp
- Why are you assuming that every 'table benefits from a clamp?
$25 for stylus cleaner
- that's about right.
$15 for the cheap Shure stylus force gauge
- a good investment
$35 for the cheap Protrac cartridge alignment tool
- Personally, I prefer a $20 mirrored protractor, but any quality piece will do the job. FYI, the price of a protractor has nothing to do with its effectiveness.
$24 for 4 vibrapods (assuming you have a base to put the 'table on)
- Why are you assuming that every 'table will benefit from such an arrangement?
> > That comes to $411 for "a few accessories" and I'm probably forgetting a few! < <
My list, using the prices you quoted, comes to $90. If a dealer does the cartridge install, the cost is reduced to $40 for a stylus cleaner and a record brush. Joe's already handled this concern, and explained in great detain why you're mistaken in your naive assumptions, but somehow it seems that nothing's gotten through.
Best Wishes,
Felix
> > Clearly, you have no experience with modern, quality analog gear. < <A little less than three years ago, I seriously looked into an analog rig and auditioned the full line of VPI and BASIS tables, along with some Sotas & Regas with quite a few different arms and cartridges. If 3 years outdates my comments, then I stand corrected. Somehow though, I doubt that in those 3 years, analog has advanced so much that it renders my opinions obsolete. I’d say that if most companies are dumping their money into anything, it’s R&D of digital technology.
Furthermore, regarding my statements: "I used to own an LP playback system but fell to the "perfect sound forever" dupe. I transferred all my LPs to tape and ditched my Thorens."
This was true and took place in 1985.
Regarding my statements: “Would an LP playback system sound better? dunno - never tried it at home... "
This is also true - I simply failed to add that I have never tried an LP playback system in my CURRENT home system I've had '96. Believe what you want, but my statements do not contradict each other.
> > "Music is my passion, not high-end audio" With this in mind, can you explain how your love of music allows you to forego enjoying the thousands upon thousands of recordings that'll never be available on CD in lieu of convenience? < <
Simple: At this point of my life, I place convenience and efficient use of time above music and high-end audio. I didn't see a need to state that in my Inmate System comment that you pulled out of your bag of tricks. The comment simply points out that I am not one who rotates tons of gear through my system like a typical audiophile: I find what I need and stick with it as long as it's listenable.
> > As you can see, I really don't need to say much to discredit your position; I can just quote your own words. < <
No, I can not see where I discredit myself. What I do see instead is you taking what I say out of context and then trying like heck to catch me in a contradiction or a misstatement; when in fact, as long as I'm offering up my opinion, which is what I've been doing, then I can always claim to be right - regardless of what you throw at me.
> > BTW, the list of accessories you included in your response to Joe is proof positive that you have no idea of what you speak. Joe's already handled this concern, and explained in great detail why you're mistaken in your naive assumptions, but somehow it seems that nothing's gotten through. < <
Yes, he explained in great detail that all I need to do instead of buying accessories is to engage in a little "blowing" and "prodding" to set up my $2k or $3k analog system. Yes, that's very sound advice.
Regards,
Aurelio
> > A little less than three years ago, I seriously looked into an analog rig and auditioned the full line of VPI and BASIS tables, along with some Sotas & Regas with quite a few different arms and cartridges. < <So what? How does being in the same room with a few turntables allow you to discuss their long-term performance constraints? I'd really like to hear an answer to this one.
> > This was true and took place in 1985. < <
Fine, you have not lived with a turntable since 1985, yet saw no problem with exclaiming dissatisfaction driven by lifestyle concerns. Obviously, in order for those comments to have relevance, you'd have to have some experience living with a modern rig, and in your own words that has not taken place in the last 16 years. Can you explain why anyone should not look at your postings as mindless drivel?
> > Believe what you want, but my statements do not contradict each other. < <
As I said before, your statements do a fine job of speaking for themselves.
> > At this point of my life, I place convenience and efficient use of time above music and high-end audio. < <
Why didn't you just say so to begin with? It could have saved everyone a lot of time.
> > I didn't see a need to state that in my Inmate System comment that you pulled out of your bag of tricks. < <
You may be surprised to find out that my bag of tricks manifests itself by clicking on the "i" link on top of your post; although, I do find it curious to see you get upset over something that *you* wrote and intended for public viewing. You may want to consider being more straight forward in your comments, and perhaps you won't feel the need to have to modify your claims and to backpedal with righteous indignation at a moment's notice.
> > The comment simply points out that I am not one who rotates tons of gear through my system like a typical audiophile: < <
Can you provide some statistical data which supports you new claims relating to the "typical audiophile?" TIA
> > No, I can not see where I discredit myself. < <
Yea, I know... ;-)
> > What I do see instead is you taking what I say out of context... < <
[...if I only had a nickel for every time...]
Clearly, nothing was taken out of context as there was nothing qualifying the statements I quoted verbatim. If you feel otherwise, please illustrate it for the group instead of crying about being confronted with your own words.
> > ...as long as I'm offering up my opinion, which is what I've been doing, then I can always claim to be right - regardless of what you throw at me. < <
What word in the English language do you think best describes an individual who argues vehemently, citing factors which cannot possibly be in his realm of personal experience and expertise, making laughably silly claims, only to buttress them with, "It's just my opinion?"
> > Yes, he explained in great detail that all I need to do instead of buying accessories... < <
Errr...you posted a list of turntable accessories which you claimed were necessary for optimum performance, that was grossly incorrect. Joe commented in detail on your first attempt at clairvoyance, but you ignored it only to return with the same, insipid lines. In fact, you made assumptions which can only be described as amazingly ignorant, showcasing your unyielding unfamiliarity with modern analog hardware. Given you total lack of experience living with good analog gear, and the arguments which followed, can you explain why your posts should not be looked at as imbecilic tripe?
> > ...all I need to do instead of buying accessories is to engage in a little "blowing" and "prodding" to set up my $2k or $3k analog system. Yes, that's very sound advice. < <
Given you accusations of taking statements out of context, can you shed some light on how your disingenuous spin of Joe's comments doesn't paint you as a raging hypocrite?
Best Wishes,
Felix
> > How does being in the same room with a few turntables allow you to discuss their long-term performance constraints? I'd really like to hear an answer to this one. < <Again you choose to ignore key words, "seriously looked into", meaning that I read up on the pros/cons of owning a "modern rig", plus I gathered feedback from local "modern rig" owners/lovers and "modern rig" dealers. Based on their answers (which BTW strongly encouraged buying a record cleaning machine to help extract that all-vital low-level detail), I made the decision that owning a "modern rig" would place a long-term constraint on my lifestyle.
> > Fine, you have not lived with a turntable since 1985, yet saw no problem with exclaiming dissatisfaction driven by lifestyle concerns. < <
No, I saw no problem with offering up my opinion.
> > Obviously, in order for those comments to have relevance, you'd have to have some experience living with a modern rig < <
You think so, huh? So you're saying that no one can conclude (or offer opinions on) how something could affect their lives based on research, education and personal preference, eh? They have to have experience living with a modern rig, eh? Are you sure you're not a dealer?
> > Can you explain why anyone should not look at your postings as mindless drivel? < <
I really could care less if everyone looks at my postings as mindless drivel. It would be nice if I gave someone "food for thought" with my opinions, but I can still sleep just fine at night if it's the former. Life is too short to focus on the (and be) negative. We can all laugh a little more, and respect others a little more. Take a good hard look in the mirror, Felix. As long as the moderators and owners of this board don't have a problem with me, then I will continue posting, as time allows. Funny, you seem to be the only one taking this thread so personally.
> > Why didn't you just say so to begin with? It could have saved everyone a lot of time. < <
From my reply to SR 5 posts and 2 days ago: "It's also about time, man. It takes time to find and scour the Salvation Armies, Goodwill Centers and out-of-the-ordinary record shops that carry vinyl - not to mention the time it takes to rifle through thousands of LPs to find a gem in mint condition for $4... Time I much rather spend dancing to music with my 2 year old"
> > You may be surprised to find out that my bag of tricks manifests itself by clicking on the "i" link on top of your post < <My point was that I do find it curious to see you reach beyond the thread for ammunition.
> > I do find it curious to see you get upset < <
You'd like to believe that I'm getting upset, wouldn't you, Felix? It was an observation.
> > You may want to consider being more straight forward in your comments, and perhaps you won't feel the need to have to modify your claims and to backpedal with righteous indignation at a moment's notice. < <I've been nothing but straight forward in my comments about owning a modern rig. I think that's what's bothering you the most.
> > Can you provide some statistical data which supports your new claims relating to the "typical audiophile?" < <
I don't have to - it's common knowledge. Where've you been?
> > Clearly, nothing was taken out of context as there was nothing qualifying the statements I quoted verbatim. If you feel otherwise, please illustrate it for the group instead of crying about being confronted with your own words. < <
From The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th Ed.), the definition of 'context': 1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning. 2. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.
Do you want me to define "take" and "out", for you, also?
> > What word in the English language do you think best describes an individual who argues vehemently, citing factors which cannot possibly be in his realm of personal experience and expertise, making laughably silly claims, only to buttress them with, "It's just my opinion?" < <
What do you call this statement you just made? A fact? I can say exactly the same thing about your comments.
From The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th Ed.), the definition of 'opinion': 1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.
And you're not arguing vehemently? Who began this discussion between the two of us?
> > Errr...you posted a list of turntable accessories which you claimed were necessary for optimum performance, that was grossly incorrect. < <
Errr... your opinion.
> > Joe commented in detail on your first attempt at clairvoyance, but you ignored it only to return with the same, insipid lines. In fact, you made assumptions which can only be described as amazingly ignorant, showcasing your unyielding unfamiliarity with modern analog hardware. < <
I've really hit a nerve, haven't I? Sounds to me like you're afraid to face the truth about the future of analog...the possibility of digital surpassing it...and the inconvenience of analog.
> > Given your total lack of experience living with good analog gear, and the arguments which followed, can you explain why your posts should not be looked at as imbecilic tripe? < <
Nope. As I alluded to earlier, I can sleep just fine at night if you think my posts are imbecillic tripe. Sounds like they're causing you many restless nights, though. ;-)
> > Given your accusations of taking statements out of context, can you shed some light on how your disingenuous spin of Joe's comments doesn't paint you as a raging hypocrite? < <
Fine, in an effort not to come off as a "raging hypocrite", I'll declare that all of Joe's advice, in my opinion, was not sound or sensible - but he is certainly entitled to his opinion, and I respect that.
Good night, Felix. I've expended enough negative energy on your hopeless attitude.
I'm through with this thread.
AS
> > Again you choose to ignore key words, "seriously looked into", meaning that I read up on the pros/cons of owning a "modern rig", plus I gathered feedback from local "modern rig" owners/lovers and "modern rig" dealers. < <Big Woop! How does this allow you to comment on long-term maintenance issues as you did? You're supposedly answering this same question, but alas that's not what's found in your reply.
> > Based on their answers (which BTW strongly encouraged buying a record cleaning machine to help extract that all-vital low-level detail), I made the decision that owning a "modern rig" would place a long-term constraint on my lifestyle. < <
Who cares? If you choose to gauge your musical satisfaction by consulting others, that's your business. My problem lies with the gross misstatement you've made in your rants, as I have illustrated ad nauseaum.
However, I'd like to explore something for a moment. You position revolves around convenience being more important than the music, which in turn is more important that hi-fi, correct? I can quote you verbatim if you like...
Seeing how you feel that you'd need a cleaning machine to extract the maximum amount of detail out of an LP - which I agree with - how does that not run totally contrary to the position you've been asserting? After all, the sound isn't as important as the music, so why did you choose to forego exploring a plethora of recordings on the basis of sonic concerns?
> > So you're saying that no one can conclude (or offer opinions on) how something could affect their lives based on research, education and personal preference, eh? < <
Your claim regrinding analog rigs needing constant adjustment is simply wrong, and you'd know that also if you actually had a turntable. That's the point you seem to be missing rather consistently.
> > I really could care less if everyone looks at my postings as mindless drivel. < <
...obviously.
> > We can all laugh a little more... < <
I don't know about you, but I've been laughing all along ;-)
> > I've been nothing but straight forward in my comments about owning a modern rig. I think that's what's bothering you the most. < <
So now you're a mindreader? If you must know, what bothers me the most are individuals who admit, after some prodding, that they have absolutely no experience with the topic in question and still assert their dogmatic views with seemingly unrivaled righteousness and zeal.
> > From my reply to SR 5 posts and 2 days ago... < <
Umm...I quoted that exact line in my first reply to you, and nowhere do you say that music and sound is less important to you than convenience, as you did when you tried to justify your position by modifying your own words which you intended for public viewing.
> > From The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th Ed.), the definition of 'context':... < <
How was the meaning of anything you wrote altered?
> > Do you want me to define "take" and "out", for you, also? < <
It would certainly be of help if you illustrated your claims in lieu of playing silly dictionary games. You claimed that your statements were taken out of context, yet there nothing to indicate they were qualified in a way that would change their meaning. Given the copious research you have done, I'd think it would be easy for you to prove your false claim, but obviously there's nothing there but another red herring.
> > What do you call this statement you just made? A fact? < <
Yes, I wrote:
"What word in the English language do you think best describes an individual who argues vehemently, citing factors which cannot possibly be in his realm of personal experience and expertise, making laughably silly claims, only to buttress them with, "It's just my opinion?""
Are you citing factors not in the realm of your personal experience and expertise?
Yes.
Are you making laughably silly claims?
Yes.
Have you buttressed them with anything other than "It's just my opinion?
No.
> > And you're not arguing vehemently? Who began this discussion between the two of us? < <
What does this have to do with you arguing a point for turntable needing constant, long-term maintenance and adjustments, when you have no knowledge whatsoever of these concerns?
> > My point was that I do find it curious to see you reach beyond the thread for ammunition. < <
Don't you find it odd referring to a description of yourself that *you* wrote in your Inmate Profile, something you obviously expected other to read, as "ammunition?" You see, my new, fine feathered friend, running and backpedaling away from your own words, while accusing others of manipulating your language just because you're unable to support you statements with anything even resembling logic and reason, is highly disingenuous.
> > Are you sure you're not a dealer? < <Yea, you've found me out, Sherlock.
> > As long as the moderators and owners of this board don't have a problem with me, then I will continue posting, as time allows. < <
What's with the strawman? Post as much as you like for all I care, just don't be upset when you're asked to support your foolish claims with something other than the inane "It's just my opinion."
> > Sounds to me like you're afraid to face the truth about the future of analog...the possibility of digital surpassing it... < <
Why are you trying to change the topic of this discussion?
> > I'll declare that all of Joe's advice, in my opinion, was not sound or sensible ... < <
How do you know, as you have no experience with turntables, at least not in the last 16 yrs? Yea, I know, it's just your opinion, one that has absolutely no bases in personal knowledge, experience, expertise, or understanding. Brilliant.
> > Good night, Felix. < <
Night time must come fast in Detroit, eh?
> > I'm through with this thread. < <
A shame, really.
Best Wishes,
Felix
You do make some good points AS.Referring to another one of my messages on this thread, I'd be willing to pay more for a real crab then for immitation crab meat. The immitation stuff is much easier to deal with and I'm sure improvements are being made every day, but it's still not the real stuff. I also enjoy the work that comes along with enjoying real crabs.
I'm hoping that my analogy doesn't offend anyone.
- Charlie
I doubt, though, that a VPI HW-19 is as tasty as those Maryland soft shells!Enjoy!
AS
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