General Asylum

• My 2 cents - Do it, 'mate psgary 15:41:27 04/07/01 (0)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  I'll just echo all the fine bits of advice. Great way to save money. Amps and other equipment are broken in. Demos can be a great bargain. I bought a used int. amp from a dealer(www.audiologic.com) through the web. They knew the original owner, and it was almost perfect when it arrived. Cost $850 new. I paid $500 14 months later. You can meet the nicest folks on the web too. As others mentioned, definitely call when buying from an individual. If the person doesn't immediately engage in 'fi-speak, don't buy. Obssessives like us like to talk, either to give or get advice or both. Great way to learn. Listen to the liitle voices inside. If something tell you not to buy, don't!

  Ask at the Asylum if you need advice on a purchase you're considering. We all know the best thing for you to do. You've just gotten proof, haven't you?

  Good luck and be sure to have fun.
  
  

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• What if? Ubiquitous Skittercat ;,,,~ 09:36:47 04/07/01 (1)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  Buying used sounds like a great idea (I've never done it). But, what if you buy from a person, and it breaks two weeks after the delivery? After going through the hassles of getting the component fixed, it will have cost you as much as a new unit with a warrenty. And with the rate that new components break out of the box, I know this has to be a concern.
  Or, is this just the risk that one takes? I'm not trying to be contrary, or pro one side or another. It's just that no one really has discussed this aspect of it, though a couple of posts touched on it.
  Just wondering,
  The Ubiquitous Skittercat
  
  

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  • Re: What if? NickR 08:15:33 04/09/01 (0)
    In Reply to: What if? posted by Ubiquitous Skittercat ;,,,~ on April 07, 2001 at 09:36:47:

    I think you bring up two different issues.

    New components that break out of the box are not relevant to buying used since the component has already made it past that milestone.

    The unit breaking two weeks after you get it is a valid concern. My experience in general is that quality electronics that survive past 90 days will live out their normal lives unless abused or damaged by their owners.

    Most high-end people treat their equipment with kid gloves so the better the equipment the better it will have been treated (in general - there are always exceptions).

    I recently bought a 2k preamp at half price - my first piece of used gear. So far so good.

    I'm sure I will feel differently if my 'new' preamp croaks next week!
    
    
    

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• Used and demo gear... gino 12:20:06 04/06/01 (0)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  can provide an excellent system without taking a second mortgage.

  Every part of our present system was demo or used when purchased. Amp and speakers were demos, the rest were trades for upgrades and were less than a year old. All were bought at 60% or less of new retail. Cable and wire were obtained new because used items were unavailable.

  We've never had a problem with any of the components. Each was purchased from a reliable dealer and I knew exactly when they were first sold--if traded, or when they were first demo'd. All were exactly as represented and came with their respective warranties. I wouldn't hesitate buying from an individual, but would definitely have all the cards on the table before purchasing.

  We will continue to buy demo and used components so long as they are near-mint and of recent manufacture. Technology, date of manufacture, manufacturer's reliability record, previous owners and price are all factors when buying used gear. Demos are usually a no-brainer and simply a matter of system suitability and price.

  As with all purchases, new or used, caveat emptor.
  
  

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• i got experience mellson 03:49:04 04/06/01 (0)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  I bought lots of used demo and b-stock components. I have never had anyproblem or whatsoever. Components with * mean i still have them.

  Plinius 8150I $1800 2yrs used (Sold $1700)

  krell 300I $1600 about two yrs used(sold 1500)

  Pass Lab Aleph III $1600 Demo($3000 list when i buy it)(sold 1450)

  Quad 77 $650 new (1800 list)(The European amplifier of the year in 93
  or 94, purchased it three years ago)(grab one if you can)(may still be available in Europe)*

  pioneer PD65 $350 5 yrs(sold 350)

  Denon 1650 AR $650 refurb(sold 600)

  Musical Fidelity $550 (or 650) from audioadvisor B-stock (sold 550)

  Marantz 67se $250 new (used for 1 1/2 yrs, sold at $200)

  MSB Link II $250 B stock (sold 300, I made some money out of this one. Hee Hee)

  PS Power Plant 300 with fan and multiwave $850 B-stock. (Please write to them and ask for one)*
  
  AR CD2 $1250 1 yr used(the best deal I have)(3450 list)*

  MSB Platinum $2400 demo (3300 list)*

  I don't know if I forget anything (didn't put on cheaper stuffs like jitter filter, cables etc...) but rest of my system were purchased new.

  Redbook CDP has the highest discount now and any "famous" or "hot" gears can be sold easily by taking 5% to 10% off purchase price.

  If you are a speaker builder and like SS, Peerless, Eton and vifa, buy them from Europe for about a 25% to 40% discount (depending on exchange rate and quantity).

  Gosh! Internet is fun and free!!

  BTW: want to buy a sharper image Ionic Breeze? go to their website sharperimage.com for about $150 apiece (auction).
  
  
  

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• Oh, yeah... Marc Bratton 00:55:42 04/06/01 (0)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  Beware, though. The process can become addicting, to the point that you fritter away any money saved because you're churning your equipment more. Be very cognizant of what specific piece you need, wait to find it at the best price, and then be happy. Do your research 1st, so there'll be no regrets latter.
  
  

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• Try "insiders" dpy 20:50:27 04/05/01 (0)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  I've had really good luck buying stuff from insiders. I got an amp for 1/3 list from a tech at a speaker manufacturer, who used to be a dealer, who had it come back from a buyer who wasn't happy right as he was going out of business. I bought a DAC for 1/2 price from a sales employee of a high end dealer, who had bought it at discount but then got something even better at discount. Folks in the high end side of the business often have closets full of stuff that I might want, and one only has to inquire.
  
  

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• Purchased some used gear Bob W 19:42:44 04/05/01 (1)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  Notably, a tonearm, a phono stage, and some Seismic Sinks.

  In general, somebody selling a high-end system is probably somebody who bought it---and if they bought it, it's a pretty safe bet that they took good care of it. Think audiophile, and you should think "textbook obsessive/compulsive disorder"; the rest of my life might be a shambles, but damn my system sounds sweet.

  I would try to make sure that you talk to the seller. Try to get a feel for whether they are indeed the owner. You'll know; they'll really want to talk about the gear, both theirs and yours. They'll share their hopes for future upgrades, as well as their frustrations with their current setups. I consider myself most fortunate in a couple of the cases to have met (albeit long distance) the sellers, whom I otherwise would not have had the pleasure of meeting.

  If you're really concerned about your level of knowledge (for example, I had never purchased a tonearm before) ask on the forum for some advice about questions to ask. When I received the arm, I studied the manual, and discovered that a small piece was missing; I dropped an e-mail to the seller, who dug through his stuff, found the part, and mailed it to me within a week. This was well after he had received the cashier's check for the purchase.

  Good luck.

  
  

  The little voices told me that duality is just the body's inability to control the mind.
  
  

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  • Good suggestion! Always call sellers and get a good vib.nt Mellson 03:55:20 04/06/01 (0)
    In Reply to: Purchased some used gear posted by Bob W on April 05, 2001 at 19:42:44:

    1
    
    

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• Similiar to buying a used car. Jim 19:18:16 04/05/01 (0)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  Best if you can find gear owned by little old ladies that was only used on Sundays. Seriously though, there are similiar potential benefits and risks. You can get great deals but you can also get burned.

  A few ideas. Consider buying from a reputable dealer (a couple with great reputations here are upscaleaudio.com
  and gcaudio.com) or local dealers that will allow home trials. There are some companies that have long warranties that are transferrable (Bryston comes to mind - 20 yr transferrable warranty). There are companies that will do upgrades and tuneups on older models for reasonable prices (McCormack and Conrad Johnson I think are examples). In general, I would probably be more inclined to buy used components with longer inherent lifespans (solid state amps and preamps as opposed to expensive cd players with moving parts or maybe even tube gear). If buying over the internet sight unseen, I would consider using an internet escrow service for the transaction. It also always pays to have a few conversations on the phone with sellers to get a feel for who you are buying from. I would also tend to buy gear that is fairly main-stream that I think I could sell easily as opposed to very expensive exotic gear that would not appeal to a large number of people. Just my thoughts.

  
  
  
  

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• Re: More used high end equipment for less $$? Brad 18:56:59 04/05/01 (0)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  I found a pair of Magnepan 1.6qr's white/cherry in a unopened/strapped factory box for roughly $300-400 off retail. Bargains can be found out there!
  
  

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• Seldom burnt from very high-end.. Busybusy 17:43:47 04/05/01 (1)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  Hi,
  I have better luck in general with higher priced, higher end stuff when purchased used. Paid $5K+ for a pair of speakers to be shipped from UK unseen, just based on phonoe conversation, but very happy.

  However, for $5.99 records, $99 tuners from Ebay, i got burnt multiple times.
  
  

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  • Agree! Remember: play dumb!!!!! Mellson 04:10:11 04/06/01 (0)
    In Reply to: Seldom burnt from very high-end.. posted by Busybusy on April 05, 2001 at 17:43:47:

    Agree! Cheap stuffs will always be cheap. high end components are safer.
    People who can afford high end(more than 1 k) are mostly not liars. But always call and talk for a while. Please investigate components that you want to buy completely before you call, and pretend that you don't understand anything about everything!!!!! Remember! Be dumb, Be polite, be a good listenner and then be glad!
    
    

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• Re: More used high end equipment for less $$? Dave Derrick 17:36:09 04/05/01 (0)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  
  There is an issue of risk, in different ways: a) some things (especially those with moving parts that might more quicker than others) might not be in optimal shape if uised b) some strategies might require purchases without auditions, depending on situations, and upon ethics (eg I would not personally go into a dealer, listen to a product, all along knowing I was already planning to get the same item used elsewhere).

  That being said, I have purchased most of my system used/demo: speakers were CES demos (that approach is very calendar dependent), as was my last DAC and some of my current room treatment; my mainline amp, secondary amp, and current DAC were dealer and manufacturer demos. My transport was purchased at list, but entirely through trade with a dealer I had dealt with before. All used and demo items were in tremendous shape, and at tremendous reduction. My preamp was used, and also in great condition. So, the used demo route can provide great deals, and buying from dealers or manufacturers might provide an extra dose of piece of mind.
  
  

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• Re: More used high end equipment for less $$? Dman 16:41:47 04/05/01 (0)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  Johnathan;
  You sure can put together a good to great system! Here's my complete 'used' system;

  Linn Axis turntable (with Akito II arm); $400 (plus trade in of a rather beaten Dual CS-505/ intermittant motor)- Local audio dealer/friend

  Linn K-9 cartridge; - cost of replacement stylus! Same dealer

  Shure V-15type V-MR; $100 - stylus 50% worn- Local dealer

  Cyrus II (by Mission) integrated amplifier; $250 - Found at a local pawn shop when brother inlaw was buying some used office funiture.

  Dahlquist DQ-10 speakers; $200 - Friend/customer at a local home theatre store I used to work for. The guy wanted $400 (with rotted woofers!), and the boss owed me some money-'nuff said.

  The rest of my rig is of course, new equipment, but there are so many good to great deals out there. Just keep an eye open, you'll find something/anything if you look hard enough.

  Now if I could just find a PAS 2 or 3 preamp in good shape...

  Keep listening,
  Dman
  
  

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• Beware of very old stuff...perhaps 10 yrs plus.. BruceL 16:30:42 04/05/01 (1)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  < <..and what are the precautions one should take in buying used gear?> >

  In the last 13 months, here's what happened to my previous system due primarily to age of the components (everything was purchased new).

  1) Turntable 14 yrs old - Mitsubishi SLT-12 (?) drive belt stretched, things got out of sync, ZERO parts available from Mitsubishi..no schematics available either.

  2) Speakers - Infinity Reference 4B -14 yrs old - foam woofer surrounds fell apart, donated to a friend, he had woofers repaired for $25 per woofer.
  
  3) M&K 2B Subwoofer - 13 yrs old - again, foam around 12" woofer was just starting to deteriorate.

  4) Eagle 2B Solid State AMP - 14 yrs old - large 80UF left channel electrolytic cap shorted, resistor burned, also burning a hole the size of a quarter in the circuit board.

  5) Two Sony CDPs, 650ES, 520ES, needed lasers replaced just inside the 3 year warranty. I have had better luck with later CDP ES series from sony in the laser area.

  6) My Nakamichi CR7A lost a motor 1 month out of warranty, and they wouldn't stand behind it. (13 months old). I paid for repair, ok still)

  Only the Yamaha C2x preamp survived without repair out of all my mid-eighties purchases, and I now use it just for a phono amp.

  This is typical of the stuff that happens with older stuff! It would not hurt to check to see if companys are still in business, are parts available, is there somewhere near where they can still be repaired, what has been the repair record of items you are interested in.

  
  
  

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  • Re: If you buy old tube gear it's not as big of a deal..... Scott T. 13:04:44 04/06/01 (0)
    In Reply to: Beware of very old stuff...perhaps 10 yrs plus.. posted by BruceL on April 05, 2001 at 16:30:42:

    Most old tube gear can still be serviced and new parts can easily replace older parts(tubes,caps,resisters,etc.).
    
    

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• I did, but in an unorthodox way...... Chris Garrett 15:52:10 04/05/01 (0)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  I actually purchased my system without listening to any of the pieces first and only saw pictures from the various websites.

  This being said, I got my speakers, preamp, amps, DAC, line conditioner and cables all used. I did buy a new PP300, CDP, TT, phono stage and cartridge(s).

  I try and communicate with the person as much as possible prior to sending off the money order or bank check. A phone call is a cheap way to get some piece of mind, although it won't tell you everything. Ask questions, get the Serial Number and email the company. I did this with my preamp and got confirmation as to its actual age.

  I won't call it 'being burned' but there was a pair of tubes I bought along with another, that failed in circuit after about 45 minutes, but I had the opportunity to send them back to Canada and just haven't done so--so my fault there. Also, a seller who knew better, told me my Cary SLAM 100s had the oil cap upgrade and when I sent them back to Cary for an unrelated issue, Kirk Owen told me that they did not have them. I got a good deal, so I didn't complain.

  
  Buying used allows one to step up to the next level for the same price.

  Chris
  
  
  

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• You betcha! Jackaro333 15:31:40 04/05/01 (0)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  If you live in a fair-sized city, you can probably find a shop that specializes in used high end stuff. I've put together a very satisfying system for much less than half of what it would cost new, and I got to audition every piece in my system before I bought it, and I got a 90 day warranty to boot.
  Here's where I do most of my shopping:
  www.echohifi.com
  
  

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• Re: More used high end equipment for less $$? Rich Rodgersrlrdtb@pacbell.net 14:50:46 04/05/01 (0)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  You betcha used is the way to go. Regardless of the economy, you can find fantastic stuff from time to time. I got a pair of M-L CLS IIz in perfect condition for $1500 over E-Bay. I would advise caution when making payment. Some people, yeah you have that gut feeling they are honest like the fella I got the CLS IIz from. The best method is UPS COD. If that isn't possible, there is something called Pay-Pal on the web. It is on the up and up from all I heard from. If you use them they get a percentage. But the ulitimate answer is YES! Buy used. Retail has already been paid to a dealer once. There is no reason to feel guilty. Most of the time the people selling are going to buy new any way. Unless the poor guy is going through a divorce. And in that case, they always buy something later.
  
  

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• Re: More used high end equipment for less $$? Jerry O 14:41:39 04/05/01 (1)
  In Reply to: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jonathon on April 05, 2001 at 14:27:31:

  Jon, you ask a very open ended question. There are lots of fine, used equipment/speakers available at less then 50 cents on the dollar. I'd recommend you audition the equipment prior to making a purchase, rather then going through the internet sight unseen or hearing unheard as it were. Regards, Jerry O.
  
  

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  • Re: More used high end equipment for less $$? Raider 15:34:04 04/05/01 (0)
    In Reply to: Re: More used high end equipment for less $$? posted by Jerry O on April 05, 2001 at 14:41:39:

    The good thing about buying used is that the more expensive the items were originally, the more you can save.

    For example, I recently bought a set of Genesis Model Vs that retailed for $15,000 or so for $3495, and from a dealer to boot.

    There was a pair of Aerial 10Ts on Audiogon yesterday for $2600.

    I think you are fine with amps and speakers if you do your homework, but I would be a little warier about mechanical devices like CD players.

    Cheers

    
    
    

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